At the end of the UFC 131 breakdown they talk about it briefly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCBQi...er_profilepage
Printable View
At the end of the UFC 131 breakdown they talk about it briefly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCBQi...er_profilepage
12 minutes :)
Their explanation sounds balanced at 1st but it really doesn't make sense to me. Their main points:
1. Both gi & no-gi have strong points & both should be mastered. Training gi stresses defense (hard to escape being held down) & no-gi stresses offense (harder to attack without grips). Defense is more important = gi training is more important.
- I give them partial credit here. It is harder to escape a 'dead-zone' while wearing a gi since it can be so hard to escape a deep grip but it definitely doesn't help your defense as far as learning to stop the pass on a slippery no-gi opponent. It also doesn't help if you are used to creating space by working a collar choke to redirect an opponents focus while they attack you.
2. It is best to train exclusively with a gi until blue or purple (rote Gracie response).
- Redonkulous! How many years are wasted defending gi-chokes & not developing a good squeeze? Since gi training does not translate nearly as well to MMA or real world applications this just does not make any sense to me.
3. Training in the gi translates better to a real world fight because people normally wear clothes.
- This one makes perfect sense if you don't think about it for more than 30 seconds. Who wears a shirt that can be used to pin you down or choke you? Most shirts just stretch or rip making all of those countless hours training chokes & grips much less useful - or worse, it can actually be detrimental in a real situation because it develops habits that become automatic - yet will fail you when really needed. I used to train with a guy that had the nastiest gi chokes from the top, bottom, anywhere. If he got 2 hands on my collar I was done. But no-gi i could defend his RNC all day - to me it seems he spent a lot of time perfecting gi-choke techniques that only worked at the gym. Gi pants on the other hand translate very well to jeans so a gi-bottom & rash-guard is a very reasonable choice (even though you can't compete in that combination of attire).
Still I need to say I really like the attitude of both of these guys. I love the bully-proof DVDs that they have put out & the Gracie breakdowns after the UFCs are always fun to watch. I don't agree with them on this debate but still have mad respect for both Ryron & Rener!
Not all shirts can be used to choke, but a lot of button up shirts can be used for gi chokes. A jacket can also be used. I believe gi is best for self defense. No gi is definitely the best for MMA though.
EDIT: After thinking about it a bit more, no gi is more universal. While gi jj might be beneficial when there are clothes to hold onto, you aren't always going to have those clothes to hang onto. What if a guy's wearing shorts? A tank top? No gi will still have techniques regardless of that situation where gi jj will have lost like half of its intended effectiveness.
Whenever people mention a certain strength of training in the gi, I always feel like they are conveniently omitting the converse weakness of that same strength. For example, when they say that the gi improves your defense since it's harder to get up they are not mentioning that it makes the top game too easy. That a gi based top game and it's grips doesn't translate well to no gi because it is only easier because of the grips.
Another one is that the gi makes training sweeps easier because the handles allow you to learn the concept of the throws easier due to the gained leverage and handles from the gi. Well, conversely it makes the learning curve on retaining base steeper because you're always getting yanked down by your collar.
Basically, many of the arguments will push anything as a strength in favor of the gi whether or not it makes a task easier or harder. If the task is harder in the gi, then it's good for you, "like training with weights on". If the task is too easy then it's like training with training wheels on. It's very hard to find a logical debate between so many rationalizations.
"Be like water; water has form and yet it has no form. It is the softest element on earth, yet it penetrates the hardest rock. It has no shape of its own, yet it can take any shape in which it is placed. In a cup, it becomes the shape of the cup. In a vase, it takes the shape of the vase and curls about the stems of flowers. Put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Please observe the adaptability of water. If you squeeze it fast, the water will flow out quickly. If you squeeze it slowly, it will come out slowly. Water may seem to move in contradiction, even uphill, but it chooses any way open to it so that it may reach the sea. It may flow swiftly or it may flow slowly, but its purpose is inexorable, its destiny sure."
"Be flexible so you can change with change. Empty yourself! Open up! After all, the usefulness of a cup is in its emptiness."
-Bruce Lee
Have a peaceful day!
I can definitely say from doing no-gi for a long time before gi, switching to gi was hard as fuck.
I don't even get in this debate. I love doing both for different reasons, and I feel like they both compliment each other in many positive ways. I think doing no-gi helps certain aspects of my gi game, and vice-versa. If people only want to train one or the other, that's fine too. Live and let live.
I do think to be the best, most well-rounded "grappler" you can be, it's important to do no-gi, gi, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, Catch...anything you can get your paws on, try it out!
I would have to agree that going from no-gi to gi is generally harder than going from gi to no-gi.
If you don't learn any overhook techniques it isn't, but I see what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Mallory
this debate is never going to die. as long as their are traditional bjj schools they will always say starting with the gi is the better choice. I dont even think if there was a 10p jj guy holding a ufc title would change their opinions on training with the gi but who knows
Our gi classes are always held right before our no gi classes. I can get owned in gi class and turn it around 180 degrees in no gi class.
Overhooks or Rubber Guard tekks will give you offense but they won't help you defend against all the crazy gi grips that people are coming up with today. Plus the only way to find your base in the gi is to train with the gi. Not saying it's impossible to go from no-gi to gi but in general it can be easier to go from gi to no-gi for most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay JC Chow
oh what the hell!!! i went to enter that contest and i posted on the wrong channel!
this is what i had to say on the subject, also big props on showing demian much love
GI vs NO Gi is a time honored debate to be honest i DO like BOTH equally but i favor NO GI over GI ... no gi is all technique and timing and intelligence and GI is about being stronger and applicable to real world combat... a bigger person in a GI can easily dominate someone who is way smaller in a GI but in no gi 2 people of different sizes are equal because it comes to technique not strength. Gi has cloth chokes and no gi is all skill based attacks. both are equal in different contexts
at 13:10 he makes the perfect point of training gi and nogi...