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1) record all techniques
2) escaping is an art
3) strong go-to techniques
4) position b4 submission
5) get humbled often
6) healthy nutrition
7) cross train in other arts
8) jiu jitsu chess
9) cardio and weighttraining
10) vary the bodytype and skill level
Feel free to add to these.. I'd love to hear what anyone else has.
Rick
I find if you're much bigger than the dude you're rolling you should use less strength and more technique. Otherwise neither of you gets a good roll in. Try match strengths so you can both work technique - you can always just power out of submissions if your ego really won't let you be tapped.
Work on flexibility everyday.
i like no. 5 :P
i'd ad: roll roll roll!!!!
- Rep out moves in my head during work and various free mind times
- submission before position(sorta most of the time)
- writing down 2 techniques from every position offense and defense helped me a lot as a white belt level to at least make sure all basic positions were covered- From Ryan Hall Game plan
- a lot of focus on things that work on bigger stronger people
Dont think I ever thought of pillerizing Jiu Jitsu stuffs before
Thanks guys! Sean, awesome man. I know Marcelo teaches sub before pos but I get frustrated how guys I know can't even hold a guy in side control to save their lives. If you can weather the storm and hold a position on someone, not only will they gasp out, but they will give you their limb.
Calan, thank you. vary the body type brotha.
Will, flexibility.. Yes, true I may add this. Although there are guys I know that aren't flexible but are awesome jits players.
Tammo, roll roll roll! Yes, the quicker you get to 5000 5 minute matches, the more this makes sense. That's why I tell people, always get a minimum 5, 5minute rounds per training session. Sometimes you'll do 10, and other times you'll do 3 or 5, but you should average 5-6 over the long haul.
Now that you remind me, for mma I am position over submission for many reasons. Points to judges, could be tired. In grappling only its like i try to use the escape to setup the submission attempt, sometimes. Depends if Im feeling froggy?:D
-Ground and Pound is an art
Very true Sean! Even in MMA the pos over sub concept applies. I think Marcelo teaches the sub over pos in his arm drags to rnc. Very valid indeed though. Positions where subs are attained quickly, over establishing control are ideal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Marshall
For other positions, it's super important to establish that position first before attacking.. Side control being one of em in my opinion. Once you know you can escape a grip of attacks though, heck, might as well drop subs at will.
can someone explain this submission over position and pos over sub stuff quick? like in two example scenarios?
I like it! But can you explain number one.
Sure thing Tammo!
Position before submission is a concept. You establish a position first and hold your ground. For instance, in side control, if the person can bump out and get free, you haven't secured your dominant position.
If s/he can't move, then it's safe to know you scored your points and you can begin to run through your submission chains...
If X -> do Y, if Y doesn't work, do Z....
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Think of how we do this in the game of Chess: You just don't bring your Queen out and start attacking at your opponent to see what sticks. A dominant gameplan would be to secure position, control the center of the board with your ponds up front, protecting the Rook area by moving your ponds one spot up, and then castling your Rook and King. This is your dominant position. From here, you can start attacking. If he blocks a certain piece, go to option 2,3,4 and so on. If you have to regroup, it doesn't matter because you have a good solid stronghold and you can change your strategy.
Record all techniques... yes. Number 1.. When I first started, there were so many moves being thrown at me to learn, I forgot them the next day. I got to writing in a journal after each class(stick figures, text, scribbles)... Anything to help me remember that move should I have to go back to it a year later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie
That got old, so after a while I started putting everything in Excel: mount bottom, mount top, side control bottom, side control top, North south control... etc...
To supplement this, I now use a flip video cam(use whatever you want to use to record), because it was super simple to take vid, and refer to it later by filename: WHO_POSITION_NAME_RATING.mp4 ---> SBOLLINGER_BUTTERFLY_ARM-DRAG-TO-BACK_10.mp4
Now, when I look back at my moves, I'll simply sort by name, and then I'll find what I'm looking for.
When I say record all techniques, my "record" is probably the extreme. But even my recording techniques had its own evolution!!
Ok, I got it thanks and yes thats a great idea I have started doing this with the mts techs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
Submission over position to me is im securing the position to get a better submission or Im thinking moves ahead on the submission more than Im thinking about the position. Or during the scramble Im thinking about the submission but Im worried about the position. Percentages in my head I guess. If Im in something like half guard bottom then Im mostly thinking about the positionQuote:
Originally Posted by Tammo Haarhuis
Could also be misused to avoid learning proper technique in other areas trying to learn to many submissions.
I originally heard Erik Paulson talking about it. Catch wrestling Philosophy. I dont like to be to rigid about it. Depends whats going on.
Seems like there are a lot of ways of looking at it
I love it. Gotta move "position b4 submission" to #1 on my list, though. Hell, I have been telling some of my gym's white belts "position b4 position". In other words, before you try to transition to a new position, set up the minor shifts, hand positions, leg pressure, etc that will make the move work. Don't just sit in a good guard and try to dive through it, or hit a pass without a good setup.
Rick, I have noticed that at most of the high level competitions, lots of guys are landing their finishes in transition, instead of waiting on the guy to settle. This is especially true among the lighter weight classes.
In the heavier weight divisions, position seems to always come first. And when you watch all the old classic guys (especially in the gi) position usually comes first. Roger Gracie's mount to cross choke series is a good example that comes to mind right away.
Why do you think this holds true? Or do you even believe it does hold true?
I'm loving your posts Brandon! So true about the finishes before position for high level jits, and pos before sub for heavier weights, or even smaller vs heavy.. As we all get to the higher levels, the way we are going to beat the next guy is to not only:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
1) recognize a submission once you gain position,
but
2) use trickery
3) speed of execution
4) efficient movement
I believe you want the positional grappling in every level, but so important in the belts coming up. How am I a 150 lb-er, but I'm able to keep a 250 lb-er flat on their back? It's because of positional dominance. I put those reps in to attain that level. I would love to present my first move to a person, only to catch them in the 4th move(my goal).
Thank you so much Brandon.. It's great to have these conversations. They are enlightening to me.
I think you're on it, right there. Submission in transition can never make sense to me if I haven't learned the fundamental principles of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
In the beginning of your grappling journey, without control over an inexperienced opponent your body doesn't learn to feel the necessary conditions that make the submission possible. Without a refined feeling (which obviously increases dramatically with time and mat experience) for those conditions, your body learns to "fall into place" whenever the condition arises, even from an unorthodox spot.
An example I can think of within my own game is the D'arce choke. I began by learning the D'arce from the top of the halfguard. Eventually, I began to see it from the mount. Then side control. Then Twister side. Then butterfly guard. Then in the transition of a double underhook guard pass, etc... Without establishing the fundamental and precise movements from a controlled position (top half guard), the transitional submission would never be very realistic. I would just find myself "almost" landing it a bunch of times.
I love both yout posts :P have to work on my positioning, because i usually feeing safe and good on my back. because of that im not good on top or in my opponents guard. gotta work on that...
sorry, my last post is full of mistakes...
Amazing thread. This white is learning a grip from you guys right now.
I gotta say this is big. Mat time is so important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammo Haarhuis
Marcelo can say that because he's marcelo. LOL. And I think what he's saying is basically, always look for the submission as priority 1? I'm just guessing. Because if you're sub before pos, the odds are, if you're not legendary like marcelo, you're going to get reversed and put in a bad position...and then you'll HAVE to think position before sub. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
I can give some MMA examples. Position before submission: a great example is Carlos Newton. Sometimes it worked for him. Look up his fight with Pat Militech. Pat gave his back while still standing for a split second and Carlos tied up his neck (he attacked with a submission before he was even on the ground or had hooks in)....but he tied it up so fast that he was able to lock in a schoolboy head lock style choke and get the tap. But if you look at his fight with Sakuraba, he failed repeatedly because he'd jump to a sub without really establishing position and this gave room for Saku to escape every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammo Haarhuis
A great position before submission guy is BJ Penn IMO or Roger Gracie. They make sure to secure that position so they control all angles leaving minimal room for escape or reversal. Then they work for the submission.
IMO, when you're a white, you def want to do position before submission. IMO, it doesn't matter if you have the whole encyclopedia of submissions in your brain, you gotta get the basics down pat. I've seen guys that were all subs lose to wrestlers who were all position. You gotta be balanced. Then, when you get to the higher levels, I think it's reasonable to let your philosophy flow with your game. Some high level guys are still about position. Like Roger. Other guys are all about catching you in transitions/scrambles. Others just attack until something sticks. But when you're high level, you can get away with that, I suppose.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only a white so I'm open to correction anytime.
Abosolutely Amazing!!! Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Thank you Tammo.. the position or technique that you have the most difficulty with, is the position you must start your matches in. For example, if you get caught in a guillotine often, learn the escape, and let your next opponent almost lock in the guillotine when sparring, and go to work. Do this until it becomes second nature to go to your escape when any future opponent tries to get that guillotine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammo Haarhuis
You must face your weakness head on.
I think I love you, Rick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
Hahahaha! Is it possible to have man crushes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
thats what i always do. if i want to work on my guard passes, i get into my opponents guard etc. thats why i think rolling is so important. as david said, a whole bunch of techniques in your head mean nothing if you cant apply them in a match or when rolling. and only whilst rolling you really learn to/and feel the basic (and not so basic) stuff, like t-rexing etc. getting told or showed something is fine, but you have to do it yourself to really get it into your head. so you do it "instinctivly" (is that a word? :P) hope you know what i mean...
a lot of great posts here...
Damn, droppin' knowledge! Thanks man, makes sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
Yes sir!!! Coach Herzog mentioned some of the guys do this when rolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Rick
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
Flexibility is a big to me I need to work on that alot more
A no when it ok to tapout before u be out
This thread is awesome. You get to take a quick trip through peoples Jiu Jitsu universes. Every-bodies universe is setup differently.
Amen my brotha. I have learned some great stuff communicating with everyone and reading their posts. Things are starting to make perfect sense for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Marshall
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Marshall