Why aren't the top grapplers better on the feet?

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11-24-2011, 01:11 AM
David Stager

Why aren't the top grapplers better on the feet?

Stop me if you've heard this one before: A couple of elite grapplers square off against each other at a tournament, both apparently renowned for their prowess on the mats. The match begins and they tentatively stare at each other; a protracted hand-fight ensues, followed by some ineffectual tie-ups, from which both grapplers promptly disengage. This goes on for at least four minutes. Every now and then a genuine takedown is attempted only to be interrupted when the competitors step out of bounds and are reset in a neutral position. Finally, someone completes a takedown with a minute left in the match and holds on for dear life until it's over. Alternatively, no takedown is scored, but someone gets an advantage or two for making an effort.

Now, I haven't been to any college wrestling matches, so I'm not sure this is the norm, but my instinct tells me this sad state of affairs is limited mostly to submission grappling tournaments. The heavier weight classes are particularly egregious, but I see a lot of dancing around and avoiding from the lighter guys too.

Why???? It is so painfully boring to watch, and frankly it shouldn't be happening. If you're the bomb on the ground, but your standup is weak, then PULL GUARD. You're just rolling the dice, at best, if you keep it on the feet. And if you don't like pulling guard or the rules penalize you for it, fine. But at least set something up. How much are you really accomplishing by slapping at your opponent's wrists and pushing away when it gets too close for comfort?

For some perspective, watch this Jacare vs. Saulo Ribeiro match (if you can stomach it):

http://dai.ly/cZ6Wdj

Now watch Matt Hughes vs. Tito Ortiz to see how a standup battle is supposed to look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22SMJSiL2j4
11-24-2011, 01:16 AM
Brent Smith

I hate when guys spend the match doing that
11-24-2011, 06:54 AM
brent_littell

There are anti stalling measures in wrestling. If u get shot on three times in a row without shooting yourself you get warned. Four unanswered shots is a point loss and five is a diqualification. As well, they will start in referees position at period changes, etc.

As far as bjj, going against a top tier guy means u don't want to give up as much as an inch. That's why you see guys constantly resetting.
11-24-2011, 11:34 PM
Tyler Timmermans

Quote:

Originally Posted by brent_littell

There are anti stalling measures in wrestling. If u get shot on three times in a row without shooting yourself you get warned. Four unanswered shots is a point loss and five is a diqualification. As well, they will start in referees position at period changes, etc.

As far as bjj, going against a top tier guy means u don't want to give up as much as an inch. That's why you see guys constantly resetting.

also style wise jj sets up alot of moves from standing wrist control so they hand fight more and wrestlers will feed you there wrist to set up a take down.
11-25-2011, 03:09 AM
The kza

its because there are less elite level grapplers than bjj guys. I've been doing bjj and college wrestling and I work for the TD and if I dont get it I tire them out at least. Plus, the more aggressive you are the better it is. No one wants to watch a hand slapping competition with 30 secs of grappling.
11-25-2011, 05:50 AM
Louis Ho

That's why I've always been a fan of guys like JJ Machado. Pulls guard right away. I do the same thing in comps.
11-25-2011, 07:28 AM
David Rosado

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ho

That's why I've always been a fan of guys like JJ Machado. Pulls guard right away. I do the same thing in comps.

This is why, IMO, the best rules are the ADCC rules. The proof is in the numbers. Way more subs than dec's. When you don't score TD's for the first few minutes (or take points away for pulling guard), it allows guys to play their game the way they want.

Good thread though.
11-25-2011, 07:56 AM
Jack LaBarge

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Rosado

This is why, IMO, the best rules are the ADCC rules. The proof is in the numbers. Way more subs than dec's. When you don't score TD's for the first few minutes (or take points away for pulling guard), it allows guys to play their game the way they want.

Good thread though.

+1 ADCC rules are great. First 5 minutes no points! Go for that submission!
11-25-2011, 08:05 AM
Jared Gammel

A great example from this was Cyborg vs. Werdum from ADCC 2011. I'm a fan of Cyborg, he has an absolutely amazing half guard for someone his size. But instead of the just playing his game, he did a weird 10 minute sumo-style push'a'thon with Werdum and ends up losing on a takedown, I think. That was really frustrating, especially because every other match he'd pull guard and give people major problems.
11-25-2011, 10:40 AM
David Stager

So how often do you guys train takedowns? We practice shots and sprawls every class, but drilling is a different story. From what I've gathered it's a lot easier to get injured when drilling takedowns, plus there's not always enough room on the mats, and there's always sooooo much to learn on the ground besides.

Still, I would expect that high-level BJJ guys would train their wrestling and judo as well. They really don't have an excuse.

I agree that the ADCC rules are the best I've seen so far, but they still don't guarantee action. Some guys are just dying to score points, so they stall the first five minutes.
11-25-2011, 11:16 AM
Mike Nall

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Stager

Stop me if you've heard this one before: A couple of elite grapplers square off against each other at a tournament, both apparently renowned for their prowess on the mats. The match begins and they tentatively stare at each other; a protracted hand-fight ensues, followed by some ineffectual tie-ups, from which both grapplers promptly disengage. This goes on for at least four minutes. Every now and then a genuine takedown is attempted only to be interrupted when the competitors step out of bounds and are reset in a neutral position. Finally, someone completes a takedown with a minute left in the match and holds on for dear life until it's over. Alternatively, no takedown is scored, but someone gets an advantage or two for making an effort.

Now, I haven't been to any college wrestling matches, so I'm not sure this is the norm, but my instinct tells me this sad state of affairs is limited mostly to submission grappling tournaments. The heavier weight classes are particularly egregious, but I see a lot of dancing around and avoiding from the lighter guys too.

Why???? It is so painfully boring to watch, and frankly it shouldn't be happening. If you're the bomb on the ground, but your standup is weak, then PULL GUARD. You're just rolling the dice, at best, if you keep it on the feet. And if you don't like pulling guard or the rules penalize you for it, fine. But at least set something up. How much are you really accomplishing by slapping at your opponent's wrists and pushing away when it gets too close for comfort?

For some perspective, watch this Jacare vs. Saulo Ribeiro match (if you can stomach it):

http://dai.ly/cZ6Wdj

Now watch Matt Hughes vs. Tito Ortiz to see how a standup battle is supposed to look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22SMJSiL2j4

LOL this match was a work and they were both banned from ADCC. But I agree in a lot of cases. A lot of top, top guys like Cobrinha, Garcia, Galvao, Xande, Roger, Calasans, Popovitch, have great Judo and/or wrestling.
11-25-2011, 11:49 AM
David Stager

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nall

LOL this match was a work and they were both banned from ADCC. But I agree in a lot of cases. A lot of top, top guys like Cobrinha, Garcia, Galvao, Xande, Roger, Calasans, Popovitch, have great Judo and/or wrestling.

I heard that the Hughes vs. Jeremy Horn match was a work, but this is the first time I've heard the same about the Hughes/Ortiz match. And it seems like an especially well-choreographed work if that is in fact the case.
11-25-2011, 04:07 PM
Nate Harris

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Stager

So how often do you guys train takedowns? We practice shots and sprawls every class, but drilling is a different story. From what I've gathered it's a lot easier to get injured when drilling takedowns, plus there's not always enough room on the mats, and there's always sooooo much to learn on the ground besides.

Still, I would expect that high-level BJJ guys would train their wrestling and judo as well. They really don't have an excuse.

I agree that the ADCC rules are the best I've seen so far, but they still don't guarantee action. Some guys are just dying to score points, so they stall the first five minutes.

We usually do about ten minutes of takedowns at the beginning of every class. Grab a partner and go over what take down you wanna work on. I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to be able to take their opponent down. Pulling guard for me is an absolute last resort. I work on wrestling but I much prefer judo. I think being able to throw somebody regardless of how big they are is just a beautiful thing.
11-25-2011, 05:59 PM
David Stager

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Harris

We usually do about ten minutes of takedowns at the beginning of every class. Grab a partner and go over what take down you wanna work on. I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to be able to take their opponent down. Pulling guard for me is an absolute last resort. I work on wrestling but I much prefer judo. I think being able to throw somebody regardless of how big they are is just a beautiful thing.

It's definitely a beautiful thing, but after getting tossed around like a ragdoll in one tournament, a couple of people advised me against going for the takedown. I ended up pulling guard from the get-go at the next tournament and won both my matches. Eventually, guard-pulling will be a last resort for me too, but only after I start training takedowns with a partner.
11-25-2011, 11:20 PM
Mike Nall

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Stager

I heard that the Hughes vs. Jeremy Horn match was a work, but this is the first time I've heard the same about the Hughes/Ortiz match. And it seems like an especially well-choreographed work if that is in fact the case.

OOOPS, I thought Hughes/Horn is what you posted. My bad
11-26-2011, 03:11 PM
AJ Camacho

It just comes down to optimum game strategies within a rule set. Without an ippon rule in effect, the lesser throwing practitioner will usually be incentivized to shoot low or to just pull guard.

I personally don't like training without takedowns but in a competitive situation I really can't blame people for wanting to keep the match safely within their strengths.