Start with this part, then watch the full documentary after, this is the best part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb7uSSUUTlw
Full Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7rgHfbUkFM
Printable View
Start with this part, then watch the full documentary after, this is the best part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb7uSSUUTlw
Full Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7rgHfbUkFM
I am about as staunch a materialist and atheist as it gets, but I will definitely admit I find the stuff about water structure compelling. I know very little about chemistry and physics, so Ill have to check into it for sure. That said, saying that prayer works seems a bit hasty to me. That there may be some way to manipulate water structures is one thing, but prayer directly implicates some sort of super natural or intelligent intermediary in between the intention or desire for a particular circumstance and the actual initiation or succession of a particular circumstance. In at least what I have seen the actual science spoken of in this documentary there are only really material, natural explanations given. But, I haven't finished the full doc. Thanks a ton for posting this though. I am definitely going to have to look into this. Super interesting, for sure.
If music and thoughts can really change the structure of water then to me, that is some evidence of intelligent design.
Happy music and positive thoughts structure water molecules into beautiful geometrical patterns??? And negative thoughts and death metal structure water into ugly patterns?? And this is scientifically documented?? Whoa. If that aint some kind of clue of the spiritual realm I don't know what is :)
This is nuts. In a good way.
At least this, if true, demonstrates the ability that we have as conscious beings to affect our environment via thought.
Maybe as we evolve forward our conscious minds will be the focal point of that evolution. Who knows?
Basically I agree with you Nick, about being an atheist and a materialist etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Corpstein
However last night I was watching the old black and white movie about the
Miracle of Lourdes the story of a young girl named Bernadette who saw the virgin
in Lourdes, France.That was all about miracle water too. I was raised a very
progressive Protestant and have since become as you are but I found myself
wanting to believe that she saw the Virgin etc. etc. and I was rooting for her.
Some people were and are cured by that water in Lourdes. Maybe it's mass
hysteria or something too. Anyway I found myself rooting for this poor girl
who was trying to convince people she saw and talked to the Virgin even
though I am neither Catholic or religious at all.
The Miracle of Lourdes - YouTube
true story of the miracle of Lourdes and the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary to St Bernadette ... 10:00 Add to Saint Bernadette Soubirous. THE MOVIE. ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8UhRpJRc4w - Cached
.Play Video
More results from youtube.com »
I wonder what water molecules would look like that just listened to "G in a Gi"
~Abraham-Hicks~Setting Your Vibrational Tone. Everything is based of vibrational tones . I'm trying to learn how to use the teachings of Abraham .
::)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric "Tiger Blood" Safier
Fascinating !
how does this prove intelligent design? I only saw the part that said 'emotions have energy that interacts with the world around us. 8 hertz to be exact.'
yeah I had mildly researched this a while ago, actually a couple of years back and was really fascinated by it. Its amazing come to think about it. I guess being and staying in a positive mind set as much as possible is the way to go. We can take what we want from anything and use it to benefit ourselves I guess. The per of positive thinking and positive influence, once again reigns supreme.
If you test the blood of a person that has cut weight for a fight before and after they hydrate you will see the same effect. Blood thickens as you dehydrate and thins as you hydrate. The water isn't magical.
If a group prayer's decibel level effects the make up of water then a group of 10th planet trainees should be able to recite Lady Antebellum's - "We Owned the Night" in the same tone and have the same effect. Still, no magic involved.
If a cloud or grilled cheese sandwich appearing to show the face of a man nobody (that is alive) has ever seen is enough to convince a person that man exists, then that person didn't need much convincing.
What do you mean by magic? Noone has said anything about "magic", merely "ultra-mundane" things. If this is real then this demonstrates that thoughts and such affect water. It's cool. Noone is saying "therefore Jesus" or something.Quote:
Still, no magic involved.
Sounds to me that you're the one who needs to look at your pre-suppositions too. Is there anything that could ever convince you that so-called supernatural events have taken place?Quote:
If a cloud or grilled cheesIe sandwich appearing to show the face of a man nobody (that is alive) has ever seen is enough to convince a person that man exists, then that person didn't need much convincing.
Look up ~Abraham-Hicks~Setting Your Vibrational Tone... There's alot of great youtube videos 2.
Prayer/Magic - I don't see the difference. Calling on something supernatural to supersede reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cowan
I'm sure there is, but I haven't experienced it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cowan
Theres been quite a handful of studies proving prayers don't work when trying to heal the sick or injured (except to certain theologians who say prayer cannot be tested thought they still try)
I think this just shows on a very small scale what each and every one of our positive or negative impacts on the environment around us can do and even show each of us are gods of our own universes or at least our environments(metaphorically)
I believe prayer works and have had it work in my life.
Just one instance was my sons finger that was nearly severed off and he could not feel because of nerve damage, the doctor said he was his miracle patient because he had feeling back in his finger just days before surgery and he would not require the surgery.
We all prayed for him and he prayed daily because he didn't want surgery and his prayer was answered.
"You must be like water" - some asian guy
From a non condescending perspective, do you think he would have gotten feeling back had you not prayed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Almeida
The reason I ask is because if you were praying, you must have been praying to something (I would assume a god - probably the Judeo Christian god). And if that god had the power and the will to "heal" your son, why allow the injury in the first place? Seems a bit cruel to show up after the fact.
And that is one of my major issues with "prayer works" stories. There is usually some traumatic event that miraculously gets fixed. Usually by a skilled doctor or medicine created as a result of years of research yet something supernatural gets the credit.
so you mean easily susceptible to other peoples thoughts and feelings lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Bell
Happy and positive vs. negative and ugly? All of those things are opinions,Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
so they cannot be taken as scientific evidence.
Heres a link showing taxpayers money being used to study alternative medicine including if distant Prayer worked to heal aids...it could not
http://www.hillmanfoundation.org/blo...x-dollars-work
doctors said "No" you cant get feeling back with this type of damage (nerves just don't fuse back) especially without surgery and even with surgery no guarantees, that is why the doctor said my son was his miracle patient.
also god does not control us, so we can go out and hurt ourselves.
the doctor did not repair it, it repaired itself. (the emergency room just put it together) but the specialist was going to have to do surgery to reconnect all the intricate pieces to try and get it to work properly (this surgery never took place), we believe this was the miraculous part.
I'm waiting for prayer to heal amputees. Probably we'll have to wait for stem cell research instead.
Get rid of hospitals, doctors, dentists, surgeons, and psychiatrists/psychologists. We don't need stinking medical technology, logic and reason and evidenced based thinking when we have our fairy tales and hocus pocus and faith in an invisible god and prayers to rely on!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn2Vl_klC9w
parents refusing treatment is stupid, god made doctors, medicine, science etc.
Man made God...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Almeida
Giving a person with cancer vitamins, minerals and protein won't cure their cancer or grow a limb for an amputee. But does that mean vitamins, minerals and protein are useless?? Are we wasting our time eating nutritious food?
The Russian and Japanese scientists in the documentary said prayer and meditation can change the molecular structure of water, it never said that prayer will cure Aids :)
Going to the gym once won't make you buff. So why go to the gym??
C'mon, isn't it mutha fucking crazy that positive thoughts and Mozart turns the structure of water into pretty geometrical patterns? That's not mad fascinating to you? :)
i was thinking of the amputee thing and my thought is that maybe they were not designed to grow back.
however we have other things on are body that are designed to grow back when cut off, such as hair, nails and our skin etc.
there is other living things that grow back when cut off such as trees.
there is also other living creatures that can grow back body parts such as salamanders.
so i guess the answer to the question is yes if God designed our limbs to grow back then they would.
this is a fun video to watch when things get too pseudosciencey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw
Very fascinating!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
prayers causing miracles? No, I believe in an intelligent designer but not miracles, but thats just some guys opinion.
some reasons why I believe in design not accident....(not that anyone cares)
Everything about science proves intelligent design: The earth, about 93 million miles from the sun, it does not freeze or fry, its the perfect distance from the sun, its axis of about 23.4 degrees, "our planets tilt axis seems to be "just right" (rare earth-why complex life is uncommon in the universe), if it was off we would already be dead, it causes annual seasons and a wide range of climate zones, it spins the right amount of time for day and night, so we wont burn or freeze, it helps with life, growing food etc.
earths magnetic field: The center of the earth is a ball of molten iron and it causes our earth to have a huge magnetic field that stretches way out into space that shields us from the full intensity of cosmic radiation, solar wind (steady stream of energetic particles), solar flares (that can release in minutes as much energy as billions of hydrogen bombs), explosions from in the outer regions or corona of the sun the blasts billions of tons of matter into space. The atmosphere keeps us breathing along with protection absorbs 99% of incoming UV radiation , and from space debris. And thats not even scratching the surface of one subject.
Science would not work or be a reliable source of testing and research if cells, chemicals and such did not have a reliable consistent outcome. How did it become reliable and consistent? You don't just throw a bunch of nuts and bolts in a box and shake it and have a new car do you? Of course not. and when you see a log cabin in the middle of the woods you just know that it all fell into a perfect pattern and became a house right? no, you wonder who built it. Design. I mean do things evolve? yes many things do! but to say there was no thought or design to how we all ended up here in a perfect environment to sustain life, have food, water, reproduction etc etc isn't very scientific, in fact many scientific theory's have less evidence and they run with it. People say there is no evidence, well the evidence is more than sufficient if you just look around on our small planet. More evidence of intelligent design than aliens but many believe in aliens (not saying I do or do not cus I don't know). How many things that are as precise as the earth happen on its own? Not to mention how amazing our bodies are! If our bodies weren't consistent then JJ would not work as well as it does, we base our technique off of the consistency of our human anatomy!
Many things we use everyday are copied from nature, like birds for flight and aerodynamics, sonar from bats, etc etc.
Not trying to turn this into debate or anything guys but logically a designer makes more scientific sense to me than "it was all an accident", we have accidents and explosions everyday for hundreds if not thousands of years and never seen a new species come out of it. I believe in science and creation i believe they completely coincide with each other ha ha, anyway nothing but love hope this doesn't offend any of you and i don't want to turn this thread into a debate, but i wanted to throw my thoughts in there cus it seems very few here believe in design and bag on someone for believing in creation and i couldn't let Ron feel alone in this :)
copypasta bc I'm feeling lazy
from http://www.philosophos.com/philosophy_article_145.html
Argument from Analogy
Firstly, the analogy of human created products with the phenomena of the universe is fallacious. Taking complex products as effects of human production is one thing. We observe this every day. We create products ourselves everyday. I can observe a house and without any problem, conclude that human beings — architect, bricklayers and so on — created it. It is safe to conclude a posteriori, on the grounds of observed experience that a house needs the combination of land developers, planning departments, architects and builders without which it would not be built; that human complex contrivances presuppose human design. This conclusion is reached from the experience of such things. It is not safe to extend this a posteriori reasoning to what is unobserved — to the creation of the phenomena of the universe — which the argument from design does.
So upon and within the grounds of observed experience, it is safe to conclude that complex designs of a car, a house, a hammer presuppose human designing intelligence; for it has been observed that the former cannot exist without the latter. It has not been observed of the phenomena in the universe that they cannot exist without a designing intelligence. So, the argument from design is resting on a conclusion extending from an observed premise to an unobserved premise and this does not follow. A premise is fallacious making the conclusion unsound. Applying thinking 'inside the box' of human experience to what is 'outside the box' of human experience, is not conclusively sound.
Secondly, the argument from analogy rests on complex human artefacts requiring a human designer. But it doesn't follow that all human artefacts are complex in character. Some are simple, like the whittled stick or the stone used to make markings. As such, the analogy doesn't hold as human artefacts are not always complex. If not all complex then the example of created human objects as complex being analogous for complex phenomena of the universe doesn't follow.
Thirdly, contrary to its claims, the argument from design does not remain within observed experience. Remaining within a posteriori reasoning alone permits the conclusion only that human designer's create artefacts, products of complexity. Contrary to a posteriori reasoning, its limits are transgressed and something not observed within experience is introduced as the cause of what is empirically observed. This appears to commit the fallacy of Petitio Principi — assuming the truth of that which has yet to be proven.
Like effects prove like causes?
Yet it is retorted that like effects must follow from like causes. We conclude the complex yet coherent innards of a watch are effects of a designing cause. Likewise, the complex yet coherent phenomena of the universe are an effect of a cause — a designing cause. The like effects of complexity arise from like causes. For all complex coherence there must be a designing intelligence. Again, that P leads to Q does not entail Q leading to P. That a designer P leads to designed complexity Q does not logically entail that complexity Q entails a designer P. This is borne out when we observe human designers create artefacts and products of complexity but is not borne out by observing non-human phenomena and inferring they likewise require a designer. It can be concluded only that human designing intelligences entail complex, designed artefacts.
So the phenomena of the universe if perceived as complex yet purposive in their manifestation, do not logically or empirically entail an intelligent, designing cause. There may be other explanations and/ or none.
Complexity
Contrary to the a posteriori, empirical based reasoning of the Design argument, complexity and purposiveness might be perceptions reducible to human cognition and not an objective character of the universe.[3] If not objective characteristics of the world 'out there' then a central premise of the argument from design — that the universe displays complexity and coherence — is not sound and the desired conclusion of a creative intelligence of such complexity etc. will not follow. Additionally, what is understood by purposive and coherent is problematic. Socrates keeps what appears to be a shambles of a filing system compared to Immanuel whose files are labelled and appropriately placed under definite categories and cabinet draws. Yet Socrates knows were everything is and can retrieve requested information as quickly as Immanuel. So complexity and purposiveness display an ambiguity. With the ambiguity no sure inference can be drawn from complexity to a creative intelligence.
I will now assume that the universe does display a complex coherence of means to ends. Assuming there is an objective complexity 'out there' independent of human cognition where means cohere into ends. Is complexity alone evidence of the necessity of a designing intelligence? No. For even if there is objective complexity it does not escape the fallacy of analogy objection discussed above. Complexity does not require or necessitate a designing intelligence. It just doesn't follow that non-human complexity must require a designing intelligence for its existence.
Even if it were admitted that the complex coherence displayed by phenomena could be accounted for by intelligent design, then the nature of intelligent design itself would have to be accounted for. The agency of intelligent design must itself possess complexity in order to create complexity. If as the argument for intelligent design maintains that complexity has to be explained by an intelligent designer then the complexity of the designer likewise has to be explained. If not, it is being maintained that the intelligent designer does not possess complexity. If not complex it has no understanding of complexity so cannot intentionally design complex creations. So if it designs complex creations, it must possess complexity and this has to be explained in terms of the design argument, in the existence of an intelligent designer of the intelligent designer and so on ad infinitum.
Goldilocks and Intelligent Design
Another approach in the argument for intelligent design is to propose that the conditions for life to exist are so delicate, so intricate that they could not have occurred by chance alone. Neutrons are slightly heavier than protons. If it were the other way round, atoms could not exist, as they would have decayed into neutrons after the 'Big Bang'. No protons, no atomic nucleuses and no atoms. No atoms then no chemistry. No chemistry then no life. That there is life at all is due to the condition of slightly heavier neutrons. In the story of Goldilocks where unlike Father and Mother Bear's porridge, Baby Bear's porridge, is 'just right' — so the conditions in the universe are 'just right': just right to allow life to exist, This so-called 'Goldilocks enigma' cannot have arisen from chance.[4] If not from chance then there must have been a creative intelligence designing the phenomena of the universe.
The immediate response to the Goldilocks enigma is that it is precisely because such delicate conditions pertain that life exists. Without these delicate conditions, life could not exist — as we perceive in the solar system. We are the lucky strike in the cosmic game of dice — no god or deliberate design is necessary.
Furthermore, an intelligent designer could not have been that intelligent. If it had, it would have loosened up on the conditions necessary for life so that they weren't so stringent. Such conditions for life reduce the chances of life rather than necessitate it. A change of a few degrees in temperature can decide the existence or not of life. An intelligent designer would have made conditions more flexible ensuring greater survival conditions for life.
Conclusion
The argument from Design whether to the Abrahamic God or to an Intelligent Designer fails. It primarily fails because it is based on analogous reasoning which is fallacious. Whilst human beings create complex products it does not follow that a designing intelligence is required to create the universe. This undermines the Argument from Design and its modern derivative of arguments for Intelligent Design.
Awesome video ;)
Dustin, life adapted based on what was available (distance from sun, temps, atmosphere, etc) not the other way around.
99% of ALL species that have ever lived are extinct - 99%. For an "intelligent" design that is one shitty track record.
I've heard every argument available for intelligent design and it always goes back to the same basic assumption - something can't come from nothing. Unless of course you are talking about the designer, then that rule doesn't apply.
What marinara sauce covered, omnipotent, flying, noodley, beer and stripper loving God made man....and midgets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel"EL DIABLO"Diaz
http://www.motifake.com/image/demoti...1216051883.jpg
Intelligent Design DOES exist Chris! It just has a LOT more pasta and sauce and midgets than previously thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ludington
http://www.kn1ghtmare.com/images/FSM/IDballs.jpg
And here's the true history of "creation"
http://scottthong.files.wordpress.co...pg?w=360&h=292
Intelligent design vs. random cosmic coincidence is based on presuppostion. The fact is this:
http://visual.ly/what-are-odds
The probability of our existence is pretty much zero. So some people say, wow, we MUST have been created! Other say, WOW it's a miracle that such a coincidence occurred!
So, you see, both sides have a legitimate right to believe in what they believe.
IMO, the improbability of all these occurrences happening in such a short period of time leads me to believe in a designer, not coincidence.
But that's just how I see it. When you have TOO many coincidences, it usually means someone is pulling the strings.
So let's just say there is a "creator", then what? Does this creator get to have a name? Does this creator get credit for all that it has created (love/hate, sickness/health, life/death)? Is the randomness in which people live and die just a cruel ass joke this "creator" is playing? And this is the small scale. When looking at the universe as a whole, this creator didn't have much ambition when it came to using "earth" as the test subject for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
Did the "creator" say:
What's the point of attributing the entire universe to a single creator? What does that answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Creator of the universe
Quote:
Originally Posted by People that accept a "creator"
Ay homie, first off, please be a bit more mature about this. I'm not being condescending to you for having a differring view. I believe I should receive similar respect. I'll be cool about it since I know most people aren't into debating and usually don't know how to have a mature discussion. But I'll do my best to answer. I'll just have to rephrase your questions for you. I got nothing but love for you and all the folks on this board, homey. So let's keep it on that level.
So let's just say there is a "creator", then what?: well, it depends. Has this creator communicated with us? Do we know the purpose of the creator for creating us? Are we just an expirement? What did the creator create? Just organisms or all of existence? What is the creator? Hyper intelligent "Alien" or actual divine force? And without knowing who/what the creator is, and the creator's purpose, the "then what?" only leads to more questions.
Does this creator get to have a name?: Does the creator communicate with us or simply observe? Like I said, we need to know what the creator's purpose is before we can move on. But, let's say the creator DOES communicate with us; does the creator tell us His/Her name?
Does this creator get credit for all that it has created (love/hate, sickness/health, life/death)? : Depends on context. Again, what is the creator's purpose and intention? Does Ford get credit for car accidents? It depends on what the intentions are.
Is the randomness in which people live and die just a cruel ass joke this "creator" is playing? Who's to say it's random? Random to us? Maybe. What if this is all part of the plan for the creator? Again, it all goes back to: "What was the purpose of creation?" It could be a sadistic being to watch us suffer. It could be a benevolent being who's trying to show both the power of his wrath and the extent of his mercy. We could be trapped in an intergalactic war over whether we should be free or enslaved or wiped out. We don't know.
When looking at the universe as a whole, this creator didn't have much ambition when it came to using "earth" as the test subject for life.
: That operates under the pressuppostion that if you were a god, you'd do better. What's more amazing? The Taj Mahal or a nano computer? Well, if the creator was able to make huge celestial bodies, then he's able to create that. What if the creator is only a hyper intelligent alien and we're experiments? How is it any less impressive to make incredibly small organisms with so many amazing features? To me, both are insanely amazing. So if there is a creator, then a creator is able to use their discretion to make whatever they want. That being the case, if the creator did "zap" the earth and make organisms, what's it to you? What makes you believe that you'd have better discretion given those powers?
What's the point of attributing the entire universe to a single creator?
That depends. But let's suppose that there is a creator and it has communicated to us; we'd have to ask the creator what the point is. Maybe it's to help us evolve. Maybe it's to teach us. Maybe it's preparing us to join a huge utopian intergalactic civilization. Maybe it's a divine being that just wants credit for how great he is.
What does that answer?
It doesn't quite answer anything simply believing that there is a creator. There are only more questions that need answers.
Now there are a bunch of religions that try to answer all of the above questions. And there are so many other theories that don't involve religion at all. If I were you, if you care about knowledge, rather than accepting a convenient school of thought, I'd at least try to learn what others believe and see how much of it aligns itself with reality. There's a lot of crazy stuff in those books man.
Or maybe your mind won't change at all. But at the very least, maybe you'll be more educated and respect that even intelligent people can believe in a creator.
Creationism=/=Religion. Not all creationists believe in a religion.
I probably won't respond after this, but in the end, the truth is, we're all looking at the same evidence, but our presuppositions influence our conclusions. And knowing this, the least we can do is agree to disagree, and love eachother regardless.
Peace.