What does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit mean to you?
What does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit mean to you?
Doesn't the Bible say its unforgivable?
Yes, but what can you do exactly that you couldn't repent and be saved from?
And if there is some act you can commit and not be forgiven for commiting, doesn't Christianity lose all of its appeal?
My understanding of Christianity has always been that you could be a total piece of garbage most of your days on this earth and one day turn it all around and be sanctified by his light when you accept him into your life.
And if there is one thing you can do where that can't happen anymore, that message becomes naught to me.
I honestly don't think 90% of 'Christians' are remotely familiar with the bible. It's pick and choose hypocrisy.
That's a great question Jon. The question touches on a lot of high level doctrinal issues, so I'll call them out without delving into them much.
I can only answer in accordance with my own theological framework. I'm a Calvinist (that's not a denomination but a belief set that arises from reading the Bible in a certain way) so this question isn't particularly difficult. I have no idea how a classic Armenian handles it, I suppose for a true Armenian, since you can lose your salvation anyway (without blaspheming the holy spirit), the answer is pretty clear. I also have no idea how a Catholic would answer it, so I can't speak for them.
Warning, this post may contain theology that may or may not be something you want to read on a jiu jitsu forum. If you don't like it, don't read it. You have been warned! ;)
1) Perseverence of the Saints (this is a core tenant of Calvinisim that is so awesome even some Armenians like it): if you're saved, you're saved. Done. Part of the idea here is that saved people are changed people. Our faith is not a list of crap you should do and not do to be saved and your sins get weighed against your good acts to determine where you go. If your sins are forgiven then your sins are forgiven, period. And then you are given the capability of living a changed life that you didn't have beforehand.
2) Total Depravity of Man: everybody is a total piece of garbage, some people just do a really good job of pretending they aren't. Jesus wasn't down with that crew and ultimately got murdered by them. So you are right that nobody is beyond redemption according to our faith. But people are too broken to choose God, our situation is such that our depravity causes us to reject him.
3) Unconditional Election / Irresistable Grace : Since you're too broken to choose him, God chooses you and saves you having nothing to do with how awesome you are, how good looking you are, what kind of good works you've done or any other thing that might cause a human being to choose or admire you. Depending on how you see this, you might say "You really don't get a choice in the matter." My view (based in scripture) is that you are enabled to make the obvious choice of not rejecting God in a way that was previously impossible for you. It may seem like splitting hairs, but from my perspective, the difference is huge. We can argue about the free will implications later.
Now we get to a sin that as far as we can tell was committed once in the entire history of humankind. Jesus, God Incarnate is walking around doing good deeds through the power of the Holy Spirit. And some Pharisees (these guys are, in a nutshell, self appointed religious enforcers / do gooders / holier than thous and have added a bunch of rules to the ones God gave people to keep people extra super duper safe) don't like it. They accuse him of working through the power of Satan. And, funny thing, God doesn't like being accused of that, that's some pretty high level blasphemy. This is where the idea of blasphemy of the holy spirit comes from and it is here that Jesus says "blasphemy of the holy spirit will not be forgiven." Now, there are some questions of whether this sin can even be committed today since Jesus isn't hanging out on earth anymore. I'll leave that alone, just keep it in mind. It appears that the sin is at some level "attributing the work of God to Satan."
Now it's time for some systematic theology. The goal here is to determine how all of this can be true at the same time without damaging your interpretation of other bits of text.
And it isn't very hard in this case.
For the Calvinist, the Perseverence of the Saints doctrine gives us a framework to understand this in. That would suggest that a Christian would be prevented from committing this sin (if indeed it can still be committed). The unconditional election doctrine tends to point towards 1) This sin is impossible to commit today or 2) God has somehow prevented anyone who is elect from committing it before they are saved. The latter may be hard to believe, but the idea that "if you walk in the Spirit you will not satisfy the evil desires of the flesh" is very scriptural.
So that's it. It's possible that this sin is no longer a factor because you can't really walk up to Jesus and call him a satanist or a sorceror. If it is possible to commit, it's still not a factor. Bottom line: according to our beliefs, you can't choose God anyway and God isn't prevented from choosing you.
Yeah Jared, there are a lot of fakes out there. Some of them *are* familiar with the Bible but they're trying to fake it till they make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
yo Iam native and our people have lots of issues with religion not ur fault many were taken away at a young age and forced to cut their hair learn new language and traumatized my priests. then they were forced to deal with trauma by addicton or behviours. Now if they continue to deal with these traumas by crime who is more responsibe the priests who are supposed to represent thier god or the poor child who has to medicate thiier pain then trumatized again by society as lossers who need to make a choice on being good but no one nows what they endured. Many people put in the same place would most likely do the same. Ya so the god I belive in is not capable of this only the work that is needed to fix it if it ever gets fixed. so I think Blaspomy is like this so called priests contolled by govt money to make people into good white citizens. I sorry for spelling I not good at posting. I respect all people and really think the answer is in family.
The verses that pertain to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:10, Mark 3:29, etc.) were spoken by Jesus when he was proselytizing. There is a degree of parallelism going on in his statements; referring to himself in the flesh on earth but also in the eternal sense. He was telling the crowd how to attain salvation; take his word for it (believe in him -- the Holy Spirit working in him) or leave it (indifference or he's lying -- which is tantamount to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit working in him assuming no later life repentance and death).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Watkins
If the question is, can a "Christian" do anything to lose their salvation? The answer is No, assuming one was sincere in their belief in the first place. However, a sincere Christian can still willingly sin, be saved and be punished (1 Cor 3:15).
It wasn't UNTIL I began really questioning Christianity that I actually read the Bible. Before that, it was more of a.. "well it's the word of god isn't it?", so why bother reading it attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
My point in saying that and not responding directly to the question of the OP is that, the question really only matters to priests and scholars. At least in terms of the Christianity that I witness, nobody has any idea or remotely cares, perhaps the average Christian is far more serious in other places.
Open your minds people, Be logical about this, Religion all starts from "Misunderstood Technology" of interstellar travelers. Thats why All major religions tell the same "Remixed" story. These so called "Angels" are flesh and blood Aliens, Just like "Cargo Cults" of World War 2. The Airforce would land on a remote pacific island, build a air strip, and give K rations to the natives Who have never seen this technology. And they saw us as "Gods" and when we left they built wooden plane replicas, in hopes that that would make us " Return " All religions have " Words To Live By" but never take that stuff literally. Because it's really just a Giant "UFO" story. And I grew up in church like most people, But " Logic " has taken over.
I saw that movie too! I forget the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
I have a friend who has a similar viewpoint as the Perserverance of the Saints you posted above, and he is a very devout Christian who saw this as a positive thing. But the way I see it, it basically creates an image of a god who has one concern: whether or not you like him.
If you do, you become a good person and get to go to heaven afterwards. If you don't, you burn for all eternity.
Now, I'm not a religious person, and theologically speaking, I've never understood how human emotions/traits can be mapped to an omnipotent figure, but it always struck me as just... petty, I guess.
Please don't take this as disrespect or anything, just giving my two cents on the subject.
I feel my mind is open, but I also can't read the stories of Jesus and not feel high respect for the Son of God who was also man that tried his best to teach us to love and also died and resurrected himself so we could be reconciled with his Father.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
Yo Orlando, check out the Anchient Aliens 6 part series on the History Channel & on You Tube, the evidence is everywere, Nazca lines Ect
@Brad: it really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you like him or whether you've become a Fan of his on Facebook.
I'll admit, mapping human traits to God is awkward at best. It's hard to understand how he operates except to relate it to the only other intelligent species of creature you're likely to run into. But understanding God by dialoging with human beings is...inexact.
But yeah, it's his way or the highway. If you don't like it, you can take a hike. That's pretty much true. He's never up for re-election, he doesn't do opinion polls. By our reckoning, he created everything without consulting anybody and he's not about to start. :)
Really !!!!! If " Something was powerfull enough to create the universe and all life in it " do you really think this energy not a " Man" with kids. would be concerned with "Petty" earth problems. Remember, religious people also used to think the Earth was "Flat" and would "burn you at the stake" for suggesting other wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Watkins
Yeah derrick...I don't know how to break it to you, but virtually all elements of reality exist and have properties that are completely independent of your opinion of what they should be. God is no exception. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
Refer to bold - See that, I can understand as a concept (though not necessarily agree with). But this is different, because it's not about willingly adopting the ways he intended for us. It's about making the choice to follow him. Hypothetically, if a person were to live their life the way God intended, with the exception of believing in him, they would still be damned, even though the only difference would be whether we love/embrace/follow him. It seems to me like a weird emphasis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
That's a good point Brad. That's why the doctrinal point of Total Depravity of Man is so important.
We cannot please him by our own power. We're broken to the core. God is not content with you being 90% good and 10% wicked.
And look, you wouldn't have it any other way. If true religion was white knuckling your way through life acting like a stoic and being petrified by the idea of doing something wrong, life would be miserable and God's people would be even more hated than we already are.
It's simply a self-perpetuating one. Otherwise we come to the obvious conclusion - believing in God isn't necessary to come to the same social ends.
You mean as monks and many other people practicing "true religion" have done for thousands of years? Isn't that the point of being a monk? To busy yourself with prayers and work as to not have time to sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Our faith isn't about social ends. I find that it is rather contrary to social ends, that's why you find people like me repeatedly committing social suicide by answering questions instead of shutting up.
Are you not concerned with your creations? If I created all, I would be concerned with all because I would be love incarnate.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
To many people want to beleive in a after life because they do nothing in their mortal life. I think the point is just to live and like Eddie has said project positivity and creativity into the world. I also agree with chuck its all about family. The native americans had it right with the tribes but thats always been my oppinion. religion is but a means of control! lets just be good friendly people and all will be well on the 10th planet.
Sidebar: on the subject of Christians not knowing their own theology: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/28...est=latestnews
@Jon: he is concerned with his own creations. He is also holy. If you look at your own life, you'll find many, many areas where you have to make decisions between competing priorities. God appears to be similar. You are asking the right questions, but you can't stop at questions, you have to dig up some answers.
I feel like I'm crossing a line here, I think I'm going to let this thread alone unless people have questions or arguments that are specifically directed at me.
Just the Idea that you refer to the energy of the universe as "HE" or "His" as if this energy has a "Physical Body" and a " Gender " and a " Ego " Reduces something this powerful down to a "Very Petty" level. The problem with modern religion is that it's drilled into you as a kid and your told not to ask question's. " I grew up in church I know " and this forces you to build a very strong set of " Mental Brick Walls " that cause you to "Get Angry" & " Defensive " and to run away fromQuote:
Originally Posted by Jon Watkins
Logic because your " Belief Systems " are being challenged. Just the fact that you posted this thread shows your still very "insecure" about "life" "religion" and the fear of "Not knowing"
Project that into a mirror and take your own adviceQuote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
I'm not making this up man. I'm not sitting around going "what's God like? Well, if God is anything like me, he's sneaking up on people and freaking them out with ninja skills and then disappearing mysteriously. Because that's totally what I would do. Then he'd give everyone pizza and we'd all sit down and watch UFC." I mean, if I was God, there wouldn't be a hell.
Trouble is, we know some of what God is like because he told us. That has nothing to do with my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Thanks, haha. I was just about to come back in and post a link to that study. Nice to see what I've always thought on that subject get validated. Obviously atheists are the most knowledgeable of religions, that's why we don't believe it.
Not so. I just think a lot of people in a given religion know too little about their own religion and FAR too little about everybody else's. Nice try at the parting shot though. ;)
Moreover, I'm willing to bet that most evolutionary atheists know jack about evolution.
People don't care. There's no dialog, why would you need to know this stuff?
Just like I said " Zero Logic ", just " Blind Faith " when talking to religious people. Why are religious people so desperate to "Follow Others" and in such desperate need of a " leader " and it's usually just the " Blind Leading The Blind " enough said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Now you're insulting me. I make my bread and butter from logic. Don't insult my intelligence and don't try to make this a logic battle, you won't like the result.
As someone who spent many years in bible study classes throughout elementary, middle, and high school, I can say that 'blasphemy of the holy spirit' is a difficult sin to commit. Someone who believes that Jesus performed miracles through the powers of satan, commits blasphemy. Some christians believe that you actually needed to witness the miracles and then believe that Jesus was using satanic powers. So atheists and agnostics need not worry about this sin... or any sin for that matter.
" Angry & Defensive " I rest my case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
I disagree.. Why would you think atheists would have knowledge of religions and not of science??? Atheists don't believe religious theology and are more knowledgeable than those who do.. Obviously atheists are more knowledgeable in the sciences than religious people. Christians can't even figure out their own beliefs let alone what is real. It has been shown through various studies in the past that atheists are the most educated people in society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
Shape those facts however you please. It wasn't a parting shot either, just my opinion. Which happens to be that most religious people aren't objective thinkers.
That wasn't logic Derrick and no one here is fooled. You're insulting me instead of dialoging about ideas, engaging in parthian tactics expecting that at some point I'll either look foolish chasing you around or that I'll give up and look stupid. I've dealt with people like you before. You're a bully and you've got nothing to say. So back down.Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick ikwueme
I think most atheists have little knowledge of science and religion because I've talked to quite a number of them. And I think that most religious people aren't any better for the same reason. There's lots of posturing, lots of appeals to emotion, lots of insults (see above), very little intelligent discourse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Gammel
..ok that's pretty funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe
I agree. People need to talk more. There are stupid people in every denomination. However, I feel that most the lack of intelligent discourse comes from the religious viewpoints inability to relay anything demonstrating valid evidence.. Then in some cases blatantly denying scientific discovery. It's a frustrating position for an atheist.
I mean I'm not an atheist because it's what I was raised or what I think is cool.. I'm an atheist because it makes the most sense to me. I'm willing to listen to people who want to explain why religion makes more sense to them, but I'm usually left questioning their mental fortitude.
Oh we can. We've got arguments and evidence and some of it isn't phrased by nutjobs. But it's boring and difficult. So boring and difficult, our own sheep aren't interested.
Walking through the cosmological argument is bad enough, walking through a formally expressed cosmological argument (which can get you around some of the logical objections to the way it has been historically expressed), a conversation in which you have to explain why an infinite causal chain cannot be traversed...is hard. And boring. You have better things to do. You want to talk for a long time about entropy and the expansion of the universe and blah blah blah? We can. You probably don't want to.
And I'm pretty sure if I did I'd get booted off this forum for proselytizing. And I can't say I'd blame the mods for doing so. I don't want people spamming this forum with propaganda from my local Church of Latterday Saints for crying out loud...