Printable View
http://www.jiujitsutimes.com/blog/jo...ile-grappling/
A lot of really solid points made here. Thought I would share it.
I have trained at a LOT of places where starting on the knees is an unwritten rule.
Definitely have to agree with him myself that its not beneficial to anyone.
I agree with him, and I'm sure most people here do as well. Knee wrestling doesn't help anybody. If we're not starting standing, I immediately take 1/4 or 1/2 if my partner doesn't do it first.
Let's not be too absolutist on this. Starting on the knees definitely benefits the academy: there are a good portion of students who train jiu-jitsu and enjoy rolling who would otherwise not train (or train elsewhere) if you had to start standing all the time. Starting on knees does help you develop your ground game TREMENDOUSLY. I teach a once-a-week Judo for BJJ class at my school. I enjoy it, I have good regulars, but I also have jiujiteiros who don't do it regularly because of the gravity/injury factor, even though we practice my judo instructor's "Happy Randori/Happy Judo" (Sid Kelly's methodology). It works but people do get beat up. I agree you can't ignore it, especially if you are a competitor, but I disagree that it is necessary to be a "true martial artist." I veer away from these types of essentialist arguments. I wrote an article on this HERE about the analogical fallacy in training: the streets or mma. It's not why everyone trains nor why everyone should train. I think Barnett's points are sound, especially for the young, athletic, MMA aspiring demographic; but that cuts off a huge portion of people who train and, most importantly, BENEFIT from training.
I don't disagree with you. When I said I agree with him, I wasn't referring to the "true martial artist" part of the article.
I start on the ground 90% of the time, but don't do the wrestling from the knees act. I don't see how two guys wrestling for a takedown from their knees accomplishes anything. If you're there purely for jiu jitsu, then one person take the bottom position and get to playing jiu jitsu.
LOL I wasn't disagreeing with you, but him, you posted as I was finishing typing my reply. :p
I'd say to anyone who is afraid of getting hurt on a takedown to pull guard and develop a nasty bottom game. Lol
I think we have to keep in mind space limitations too. Not everybody has a wide open floor space. When you have 16 - 20 guys paired up to roll you are begging for injuries if you all start from standing. I think it's beneficial to have standup times but to disregard the benefit of rolling (while starting from the knees, guard, turtle, etc) is short sighted at best.
Exactly. My gym is packed tight most nights. If we started on the feet, we would have to either take turns or accept injuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ludington
The article does address that starting in other realistic situations is still better than starting on the knees. He stated, "But even still, wrestling on your knees in my opinion is not going to help your rolling very much and it’s not going to help you be better prepared for competition. Instead, start with one person in what I call a negative position with a negative position being: on your back or someone in a dominant top position like side, mount, or on your back. These are actual combat viable positions you will see yourself in all the time while grappling whether you’re the person on top or bottom."Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ludington
Just start with open guard and standing passing. That will deal with the space issue, and correct the kneeling problem. That's how all my guys start. One starts standing and the other starts in open guard.
I like that. Whenever I have a good amount of mat space I'll ask my training partners if they want to start on the feet. Otherwise if it turns into a game of tug of war into each other's guards, I'll just stand and try to passQuote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
One of only two things posted in our gym:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...b6befde078e003
I trained with the MAC (Level 1) on Ft. Benning a few years ago and one thing I really liked was during live rolls the instructor lined everybody up, and we counted 1, 2, 1, 2. Once you knew if you were a 1 or a 2 you always paired up with the other (1 and 2). Then he'd yell, 1's down, 2's in side control or 1's down 2 in mount. And that's how we started each live roll.
I like this! You can change it up too every day. Work from all sorts of positions. Add the truck in there, deep half etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ludington
Idk, I feel like positions need to be earned. Drilling and positional sparring is one thing, but all the rolls? Idk
Unfortunately this is the other thing they have posted,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
Attachment 3151
This or starting in whatever position we worked on today (that is picked by the instructor) is what we do and how most high level guys train if your not starting from standing. Battling for takedowns from the knees is a waste of time and is not competition or real life applicable at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean applegate
Neglecting standing is a big mistake. However, a couple good points have been made. Such as this: I think without takedowns, jiujitsu is for everyone.. With takedowns, it's still for most people, but probably not everyone. If you want to compete at expert, or become a professional grappler, or do mma, you must have a developed takedown game. And the requires starting from standing often.. Advanced classes, mma classes, wrestling/takedown/judo classes can fix that problem without running off the pussies, I mean, beginners.
Oh man, almost everything in my life today has been Asian, including the other thing in the gym. hahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
Yeah, we start from the feet and teach takedowns everyday from day 1. Our new guys do fine with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Ray
Yeah, both guys starting from their knees is pretty dumb, I think. One person has to take the bottom position. I always just take the opposite of whatever my partner chooses. If he wants to start on his knees, I'll sit down. If he wants to sit down, I'll go to my knees or standing, I like standing passes a lot.
On that, then yes, knee wrestling "is not a thing," although from my experience in two schools (Relson and American Top Team) my instructors have always reminded us that "knee wrestling is not a thing." In other words, knee wrestling is really a beginner's thing in my experience with jiu-jitsu schools I've trained in and visited. Otherwise, someone settles as the guard player. I may be wrong, but most BJJers understand this. To an outsider, it may look like we are knee wrestling but we are already doing what Barnett suggests.