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Who here likes to play outside ashi garami for leg attacks? I am a big leg lock guy. But when I do attack with them, I almost exclusively play from ashi garami and inside sankaku. At times, I will even attack from the 50/50 position, but I never go to outside ashi. I can see that outside ashi can work well for belly down kneebars and toe holds, but what are the benefits from playing there?
Sound off, friends!
Just zombie the leg and transit to ushiro ashi garami
Edit: Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrEk9MbvUc
6:43 of this video.
I at one point felt the same as you. Until I realized to the transition outside ashi is one of the best defenses to the standard push the foot off the hip ashi escape. And also, as a bonus, there are several set ups and entries that go directly there to outside ashi so you can only use them if you put time into that position.
There are some other advantages and I have talked about those on this forum before but those are the main two reasons to put time into it in my opinion.
Thank you for your response, Brian. I can see how outside ashi can be a nice transition after a standard ashi defense. Are there any good videos on the transfer that you know of? As I mentioned earlier, I mainly attack from ashi and inside sankaku. I've also been playing with Josh Hayden's 80/20 position as well.
Outside Ashi really is a position that is best for the outside heel hook, it's actually more effective (IMO) than either Inside Sankaku or Ashi Garami because it eliminates the two major vulnerabilities of each of those positions.
The issue with Inside Sankaku (or 411) is that it naturally turns the knee inward which is the same direction and while you can still finish the heel hook, you are creating a longer distance that you have to move their foot until you get to what we refer to as the "break point"; in Outside Ashi you are able to use both your legs to clamp and twist the knee outwards while twisting and compressing the foot inwards. (Think of the same concept as a twister, you want to have their opposite hip pinned as far to the other side (away from you) in order to create the maximum amount of tension prior to you applying pressure.)
The issue with Ashi Garami is that while it's the easiest position to enter into, it also has a large selection of escapes. The biggest issue is that your legs aren't able to lock up and create a structural control position like you're able to in outside ashi or Inside Sankaku. The benefit of this is that it's harder for them to break your clamp, giving you more time to finish before they're able to free their leg or give themselves enough play in their knee to survive.
I'm not a big fan of 50/50 and when I end up there, I usually try to transition to Outside Ashi as I like having the foot isolated without the other foot there to disrupt or I will try to zombie the other leg over to attack the inside heel hook (I believe it's referred to as the Tony Montana position?) The reason I'm so anti-50/50 is that I feel like I am putting myself in too much danger, where as I can transition to a different position rather easily where I have a higher advantage.
These could just be my preferences, and I'm sure that Outside Ashi has it's weakness and major flaws as well, and I am by no means as seasoned as someone like Herzog, Debes, Brandon Mc, etc. So if my information conflicts with any of theirs, take their advice.
Marvin has got a nasty doa and 50/50 system based off the X break. Look into it, it's part of the future of the leg game
Corey you should hit up Omar at 10p Lombard! He has mad game in the areas you speak of. Or you should check out Leg Lock Club at 10p Chicago on Saturdays 12-2!
If you were into leg locks before the recent explosion of interest then the outside ashi can look weird and not feel very comfortable. It takes a little while to get the position down, but the big advantages is that it's probably the strongest position to attack the outside heel hook. You have a closed circuit leg configuration, so unlike regular ashi, the opponent cannot as easily split your feet to escape. It also allows you more ability to pin and isolate their hip, which causes more tension in the leg, which allows for more power when you apply pressure for the break.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyK
Speaking of isolating the hips, the outside ashi is virtually a pin that keeps their hips stapled to the mat. With a good outside ashi, they shouldn't be able to move or scoot without dragging you along with them. Contrast that with a 'game over' or 'reaper' style reaping heel hook, which is a great finish, but positionally you can end up "throwing them" out of the position and helping them roll out. With a good outside ashi heel hook they should not be able to roll or spin.
Another benefit is on the finish itself. As you apply the break, you want to bring their toes towards their butt, right? Well having outside ashi allows you to use the power of your leg/s behind their hips to pull their butt towards their toes. So the pressure is hitting them twice as hard.
The disadvantage to the position is that if it goes wrong, you're more likely to get smash passed than if you have a position like the honeyhole/inside sankaku/4-11/etc. That and the outside heel hook is a less powerful finish than the inside heel hook.
There are various preferences for how to actually configure your legs, and you've got to find what works for you. Also to deal with someone either sitting up and trying to smash you or fight hands, or someone falling back to split your legs/feet, you've got to be able to switch from flaring your top knee in front of their chest, back to curling behind them, and vice versa.
It's a strong position and it's worth playing. Especially if you like standard ashi.
Genuinely curious and trying to have an honest discussion. I can see how the inside sankaku/411 'could' be done while turning their knee inwards, but ideally it should turn their knee outwards. So if I have your right leg trapped, my left knee should be flaring outside and to the left, pointing your right knee outwards to your right/my left. Also, unless I'm reading you wrong, it sounds like for you the inside (inverted) heel hook isn't as strong a finish as the outside heel hook? I think the inside heel hook has a lot of advantages. The inside of the foot is longer and flat, and easier to catch in your armpit. The outside of the foot is shorter (heel to pinky toe is shorter than heel to big toe) and the foot slopes as it gets to the pinky toe. This can make digging for the outside heel hook more difficult and easier for the foot to slip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie Carter
The rest of your post is solid and I agree with those points as well. The thing with the 50/50 is that it's a skill based position. It's a neutral position so whoever is better from there is going to win. This was fine when people didn't know the leg game as well as they do now. These days I think it's way more risky to go to the 50/50 for the reasons that you mentioned. It turns into way more of a shootout situation to see who is faster on the draw. The inside heel hook is great but I prefer the /inside sankaku/411 for the inside heel hook because I can keep all of my feet pretty safe.
In my eyes the biggest advantage to the outside heel hook is that there's much more pain in the foot/ankle before the break travels to the knee. So your training partners have more time to tap. The inside heel hook pressure travels to the knee faster, and I'd make a strong case that it's the most powerful joint lock in the whole game.
The outside ashi is very strong. There are some great finishing positions there. The issue with it comes from the stack. The pin isn't very good there. You have to be ready to move if you plan to attack from there. The other entanglements tend to have better pins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Nall
Thanks for the reply man! Yeah, I was actually thinking of the tradition reaping position with the foot isolated on the outside as opposed to the inside which is the more accurate description of 411/Inside Sankaku. I guess even still with that you would be able to flare the knee to the outside and perhaps I'm doing it wrong (Still a white belt after all), because as I think about it, you're probably right even with the reap position as I could flare his knee outward to create that tension (I think the issue I'm having is that I switch to my inside hip to triangle my legs, but I need to switch back to my outside hip to turn the knee outward). Admittedly it's not my go-to or favorite position for attacking as I prefer to maintain the flexibility to bail on the leglock and pass the guard if things aren't going as well, and (to my pathetic whitebelt) knowledge, it's not as easy to bail from a reap.
The inside heel hook is definitely a stronger finish. I prefer the outside for two reasons, the main one being that I'm deathly afraid of hurting a training partner, even if on accident, and the inside heel hook has a smaller margin of error, so I really will only go for it on the training partners I feel most comfortable with. The other reason is that I prefer to have the foot isolated so they can't use their other foot to try and disrupt the heel hook attempt. Granted there are options and ways to prevent it, I just haven't used them much because I'm apprehensive about the risk of injury.
50/50 was my jam when I first started as I had bought Ryan Hall's DVD series before I actually ever bought a gi, but as I've learned and advanced in leg locks, I've realized that there are better ways to attack a leg without putting your own feet in harm's way because people have caught up. However, a couple guys are starting to use the Hayden 80/20 system, I've never used it, do you have any thoughts on it?
I'm no leg lock expert, but I do like using Outside Ashi for 2 reasons:
A) Finishing the submission (straight ankle lock or outside heel hook) - When you stomp both of your legs on your opponent's hips, it is more difficult for your opponent to roll or counter. You can also generate more torque in your hips.
B) If the submission fails, I like transitioning to Captain Morgan to set up the knee bar or go back to Inside Senkaku for the inside heel hook finish. Or as other people mentioned, you can transition to 50/50 and finish with the inside heel hook.
Marvin Castelle posted a cool video showing a nice outside Ashi setup and transition a few days ago. Check it out! https://www.instagram.com/da_cerberus/
I'll reply to the rest soon but it's cool that you've been around that long. Yeah great dvd. The 5050 also made more sense back then because people were still doing the finish where they twist the heel across their chest and rotate/gator roll to finish instead of bridging into the side of the knee. So the 5050 position made it easier to slow their their twist while you could twist faster. Now that there's a better way to finish the heel hook, Ryan Hall is way heavier into the 411 and outside ashi style positions than he is the 5050.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie Carter
It's funny because on that dvd he goes to the 411 a lot and then transitions to the 5050 from there. And that's not a transition you'd really see anymore.
The 80/20 is probably the best way to attack if you do go into the 5050 by choice or end up there by accident. I think it''s worth looking into but not as good as the 4-11 and outside ashi positions.
Oh no man, I haven't been around that long, just 2 years doing jiu jitsu; I just got into BJJ because of my NCOIC and he recommended Ryan Hall to me, and I had watched some videos of EBI and knew that leg locks were a big deal and then my first class actually happened to be on straight ankle locks so I just kind dove into the dark side. I'd heard of Ryan Hall and how great his instructional dvds were so I bought the 50/50 set off EBAY for like 30-40 bucks. I thought I was going to be this killer armed with a 50/50 game, and that just wasn't the case, lol. Luckily, I fell into a mentor/mentee role with one of our Brown Belts who has been studying leg locks extensively and I go to a pretty open minded gym so I've been studying leg locks since literally day one. I still feel like I have a lot to learn, but I'm an avid student of the game, I try to buy any and every instructional I can on legs from Hall to Bodycomb and even Kesting's new modern leg lock formula. I feel like I have a solid leg lock game and I've caught some higher belts in training (but to be fair, it's training, they'd kill me in competition) and have helped several with their understanding of different aspects. So I try to help when I can, but like to throw in the disclaimer that I'm no expert, I'm still learning. I feel like I understand the concepts and can help someone out, but I'm always willing to be corrected.
I found the 80/20 stuff to be a very useful addition to my leg game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie Carter
If you have a hard time with them coming up with the smash, try figure fouring so your shin lays across their hip. Its one of the only ways i found to shield the guy, while also having an anchor point to finish the heel hook. The only down side i found is people try to attack your top leg, but is easily defended by grabbing your own shin!