Head n' Arm Control while fighting w/ the Lockdown.

Hey guys,

I've been struggling for a while with grappling players who put wicked head control on while I've got them in the Lockdown. Their weight is directly on top of me, making it hard for me to make proper use of the Whip-Up. It wouldn't be so bad if they tried searching for a submission or transition and I could catch a mistake they've made, what it frustrating is that when I catch them in Lockdown they tend to sit there and let the roll get stale. I can't search for an Old School or Electric Chair, and sometimes it's hard to even get Plan B or the TwistBack/Plan B combo. anyone got pointers on successful ways to fight back head control?

Try whipping them up more over the opposite shoulder to the lockdown. So they are going more "up" than to the side.

I can give that a shot and see what happens. Thanks Scott, and everyone else please post ideas and tips

Head and arm means they've got an underhook negating your whip up. The stomps, godfather, and jaws of life are good options to start with.

Nate, here are a few things that work really well for me in high level competitions. I know exactly what you are saying, because a lot of these East Coast guys still haven't figured out the simplicity of the lock-down yet.
First money move for me: when my opponents catch me in the head and arm while I'm grabbing lock-down, I change my grips. Their under-hook arm becomes an over-hook arm for me, and I pin my hand to the small space between our chests. Now, depending on which side it is on, that determines the direction of my sweep. Example: if his under-hook is on the same side as my lock-down, i over-hook and stuff my hand deep, trapping his arm so he can't base out with it. Then I open my lock, and bridge sweep with power to that same side. (this one is easier, since his weight is already on that side, and I don't have to muscle him)
Second: if his under-hook arm is on the opposite side, I use my "un-trapped" arm that is under his armpit as an upward hook, I run my hand right over his shoulder into his throat, let go of my hooking foot (the on that is putting pressure on the instep of his foot) but keep my leg that is behind his knee there as my leg sweep, bridge with your free foot and sweep.
Third: remember that lock-down is not a place you try to chill and hang out for a long period of time. as soon as you lock it in, under-hook and whip up, even if you don't have your hands planted perfectly, whip it up fast and hard with your knee's and turn it to the side fast. This will prevent most dudes from getting that head and arm too quickly. Biggest mistake I see people making with lock-down sweeps is this, they try to leg lift their opponents, not whip up driving the knee's to the chest. You HAVE to whip up, not log left.. even in a fairly tight head and arm, you should be able to move your opponent around with your whip up. And don't forget that crowbar to break his grip, and pimp arm his hip if you get stuck, and there is always the stomp, new stomp, and super stomp! I hope this helps man.
I used to get stuck in this position all the time.. now I know better...

also, here are some moves i worked on the other day with one of my students.. maybe some of it will help. if so, let me know dude. good luck. drill it drill it drill it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h44XFq0xDYo

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Head and arm means they've got an underhook negating your whip up. The stomps, godfather, and jaws of life are good options to start with.

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duh - i was thinking he had double unders. sorry.

I gave up on fighting for it. If I get the under hooks then it's up to my side for an old school or a twist back. If I get the over hook then I go for the super stomp. It turns out that most guys were expecting my lockdown game and shutting it down, now that I hit the super stomp all the time, they are expecting that... so now my lockdown game is back into play again.

Thanks guys, I'm going to have to go back to my "Mastering the Rubber Guard" book, and review the stomps. Keep up the ideas please I want this thread to stay FRESHHH

that video help at all man?

Yeah I'm most likely gonna review it in the morning before class thanks Mike

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Originally Posted by Nate Musick

Thanks guys, I'm going to have to go back to my "Mastering the Rubber Guard" book, and review the stomps. Keep up the ideas please I want this thread to stay FRESHHH

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Combine your stomps with the godfather. Defending one opens the other. They can slice through your stomp with good instep pressure. Then you torque the knee with godfather opening their hips giving you more options and forcing them to defend. If they counter that go back to stomp. Back and forth. Plus during all the shenanigans they might give up the under hook. Take it.

love this quote. it applies to all...
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the
result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory
gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle." (The Art of War, Sun Tzu)

OP, frame your opponents biceps to keep him from getting head and arm. Also, if you can immediately get onto your side, you can put your bottom side arm's hand on your forehead... kind of like a forehead slap (doh!). This makes his crossface slide right over your hand and over your head. Someone else already said that you should be active. That's very important. If you're working to get the lockdown and you pass up an open sweep, that is silly. Start grabbing for the toes even if your lockdown isn't in... get the lockdown in while you are working sweeps.

If they knee slide straight away, swim your left hand in and get double underhooks. You can go straight to dogfight from her if your double unders are perfect.

If you get crossfaced after all that, you have to stomp immediately. Stomp like your life depends on it and push up to butterfly quickly. From there you are on 100% offense with that overhook.

Also, re-read your books and see what they say about halfguard options/transitions. Lockdown is the treetrunk of the system

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Combine your stomps with the godfather. Defending one opens the other. They can slice through your stomp with good instep pressure. Then you torque the knee with godfather opening their hips giving you more options and forcing them to defend. If they counter that go back to stomp. Back and forth. Plus during all the shenanigans they might give up the under hook. Take it.

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This is good shit... also, during all of this sometimes they make the mistake of letting in a bunch of space so that they can keep their balance and/or pressure on your head. When that happens use that butterfly hook and whatever hands you have free at the moment to shove the off you. Immediately stand up. Any time you can stand up or get to your knees, try it. A lot of times you can turn it into a sort of takedown. If their weight stays forward so that you can't do the takedown, snap their head down for a Marcelo guillotine.

Whats the choke called where you have an overhook and an underhook, you get your head under their arm on the underhook side, slide up so their arm is up the side of their head, take your overhook arms hand and put it below your bisep on your underhook arm like an RNC and the take the underhook arm, put that to the side of your head (thats how I have been doing it) and squeeze.
Man, if you can figure that out you deserve a medal.

I saw Eddie do it rolling in one video (not technique) and as Iv been haveing real trouble whipping up (similar to whats described here) with the guys Iv been rolling with, as they scramble to hold onto me, I keep getting that choke. I got it from guard once as well.

Would love to know what its called (probably something simple).

the torque on the knee from the lockdown is wicked..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Combine your stomps with the godfather. Defending one opens the other. They can slice through your stomp with good instep pressure. Then you torque the knee with godfather opening their hips giving you more options and forcing them to defend. If they counter that go back to stomp. Back and forth. Plus during all the shenanigans they might give up the under hook. Take it.

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Just be careful & don't break your toe like I did Saturday!!! I still don't know how I did that... My Godfather sucks!!!

Apollo choke

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Apollo choke

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Was that an answer to my question?

Combine stomps with the Godfather huh? Hmmmm I'm going to have to try this. Now that I have switched to Gi pants my Lockdown is so fn tight but I still have harder times whiping up on Blue belts however the godfather shit may work .....just have to see.

Man Mike, that vid helped me a lot. I've watched it a couple times! Thanks bro!

Tim. Yup. I have heard the arm triangle from bottom half called the apollo choke before. Eddie did it to Naoya Uematsu.

Don, I would use the godfather a LOT less if I wore gi pants. I only choose it over the stomps if they have good instep pressure and can escape their knee or if they have a considerable size advantage

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Originally Posted by Don Blankenship

Combine stomps with the Godfather huh? Hmmmm I'm going to have to try this. Now that I have switched to Gi pants my Lockdown is so fn tight but I still have harder times whiping up on Blue belts however the godfather shit may work .....just have to see.

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It depends. I mean the dynamics to some of these moves exist in some form in other sweeps. So you may want to get some reps in on white belts before taking it to the blue belts. Each move has a meta-game or a battle within a battle that can occur when up against a knowledgeable opponent. So like for half guard itself, much of the meta game will revolve around that outside underhook and your opponent trying to flatten your back against the mat. For the super stomp, they will be trying to slip that half butterfly hook.

I guess what I'm saying is that it would be a shame if you drilled something 20 times, took it to the mat, had it crushed by a blue belt, and then moved on looking for another move that will "do the trick".

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

It depends. I mean the dynamics to some of these moves exist in some form in other sweeps. So you may want to get some reps in on white belts before taking it to the blue belts. Each move has a meta-game or a battle within a battle that can occur when up against a knowledgeable opponent. So like for half guard itself, much of the meta game will revolve around that outside underhook and your opponent trying to flatten your back against the mat. For the super stomp, they will be trying to slip that half butterfly hook.

I guess what I'm saying is that it would be a shame if you drilled something 20 times, took it to the mat, had it crushed by a blue belt, and then moved on looking for another move that will "do the trick".

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Yea I agree its just I cant whip up on them heavy mfers and they keep protected from my double unders. I have gotta get good at stomping I guess because when i go for the stomp they just pass into side control.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Tim. Yup. I have heard the arm triangle from bottom half called the apollo choke before. Eddie did it to Naoya Uematsu.

Don, I would use the godfather a LOT less if I wore gi pants. I only choose it over the stomps if they have good instep pressure and can escape their knee or if they have a considerable size advantage

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yep. apollo choke. we just call it an arm triangle. the major difference i see in it is that eddie s grips his hands behind his head and uses that leverage to drive the arm deeper across the neck before locking it up and giving it the squeeze.

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Originally Posted by Don Blankenship

Yea I agree its just I cant whip up on them heavy mfers and they keep protected from my double unders. I have gotta get good at stomping I guess because when i go for the stomp they just pass into side control.

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What helps me, is to fully extend the lockdown before I release it. Then as they are regaining their base I re-wrap to the half butterfly and kick push them back with my hook before they can get their base back together. I usually have to do it all quick and fast because if I sit with that hook too long they get too acclimated to it and try to pass it.

It's kind of funny actually because I learned it at one of Eddie's seminars and one of the guys I was drilling with was bigger than me and I think he was from the local school, so he was familiar with it. For the drill we would setup and start in the half butterfly. Right when Eddie would say "ready" this dude would already start to nudge his knee out of my butterfly hook killing the whole drill. It was frustrating but the point is that, that half butterfly spot isn't the safest spot to chill out at especially when the dude knows what you are trying to do.

1. Mike you remind me of Mike Vallely.

2. Are you teaching 10thpjj classes in North Carolina?

Sorry guys, wanna freshen this thread up so I could review. Anyone want to post advanced half guard? I've heard the term Forsaken Whip dropped, not quite sure what it is

the lockdown is a very overlooked techniqe so many options

lockdown over under-> lockdown overhook->93 guard overhook->pyramid

has been my go to since I was shown it by Travis a purple belt at 10th Planet SF. Forgot what we named it might have been T-bag. Once you get the overhook its relatively easy to work onto your side and get your knee in between you for the 93guard. Keeping the overhook and wrist control, From there you have easy access to the pyramid as well as a few other options.

i like to go to lockdown,sweep and go for mount..useing lockdown to set up the electric chair isnt bad either

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Combine your stomps with the godfather. Defending one opens the other. They can slice through your stomp with good instep pressure. Then you torque the knee with godfather opening their hips giving you more options and forcing them to defend. If they counter that go back to stomp. Back and forth. Plus during all the shenanigans they might give up the under hook. Take it.

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Listen to Bobby!!! This worked great for me the other night... Bobby knows his shit... He taught it to me just two weeks ago.. Thanks Bobby..

Hey Nate,

Forsaken Whip is when, instead of the traditional Whip Up (if you have their Right leg trapped, whipping them to your Right) you whip them to the opposite side first (whipping them to your left) them drop them back on the normal side.

I find it useful when your going for the regular Whip Up, but the guy is driving his weight back across you to the opposite side. You then whip him up the other way and they'll usually start to shift their weight back over you, allowing you to drop them back to your Right, effectively putting you on your side in the regular Whip Up position.

Its a circular motion, and using the Whip Up and Forsaken Whip in combination will usually get you on your side.

Hope that's clear. If not, purchase 10th Planet All Stars. Einstein has a section on it.


P.S Any one know the official name for the Fat Man Whip/Thumbs Up Whip?

So if I'm not mistaken, Forsaken Whipping is just whipping them to the opposite side then as their weight is being brought back over you, you execute the regular whip up and go to your side?

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Originally Posted by Nate Musick

So if I'm not mistaken, Forsaken Whipping is just whipping them to the opposite side then as their weight is being brought back over you, you execute the regular whip up and go to your side?

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I played with it today... it was easy peasy. I feel like an idiot for not trying that before.

The Forsaken Whip should be one big circular motion, taking them (if you have their right leg trapped) up to your left (like whipping up to the opposite side), over your head and dropping them back on the right. The final position should be you on your side just like the regular whip up.

Use them in combination
If they are basing across the opposite way when you go for the Whip Up, use the Forsaken Whip. If you are tyring the Forsaken Whip and they base to the right, use the regular Whip Up. If they get stuck on top of you (keeping you flat when you have the underhooks) use the Fat Man Whip.

Just remember with the Lock Down you can
Bring them on top of you (Whip Up)
Drag them down or away (extending the lock down)
Shift their weight left and right (swinging the lockdown side to side)
Or combine these movements together. You should be able to move them around pretty effectively, either getting to your side and working Boa etc or getting them on top of you and going some sort of Electric Chair path

If I still can't get the guy moving I'll start a Twist Back on their knee and see where that takes me.
If all else fails, whip to Deep Half.

P.S If you don't have 10th Planet All Stars (for the section on the Forsaken Whip) or Mastering the Twister/Rubber Guard books and DVD, you really should. If you have all these and access to the website, you'll pretty much have the entire 10th Planet System that you can study and review at any time.