Gary Tonon was a beast. Incredible submission chains!
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Gary Tonon was a beast. Incredible submission chains!
Holy crap. Jake Shields vs Roberto Satoshi!
What was that Renzo said about taking pills from Abu Dhabi?
So who won? I didn't get to go watch it.
Yeah it sounded really bad.
Tonon beat Maxwell via heel hook. All of the other matches were a draw.
A submission only event where 5 out of 6 of the matches has a submission...
I would like to see this as a no time limit event which is shown to the public after it's been edited and cut down to 1 hour. similar to the BJJ kumita by Lloyd Irvin) and no competitor can discuss the results (similar to a reality show)
Imagine a TRUE submission only match between Ryron and Galvao, Eddie and Royler, Saku and Renzo... That's what we really want. A draw is so anti climatic.
Doesn't have a submission***
So Metamoris has had 30 matches now. 6 matches at each event.
10 have ended in submission:
4 gi (2 armbars, 1 kimura, 1 baseball choke),
6 nogi (2 reverse heel hooks, 2 guillotines, 1 RNC, 1 scarf hold)
M1 - 3 subs
M2 - 1 sub
M3 - 2 subs
M4 - 3 subs
M5 - 1 sub
So they have a 1/3rd submission rate exactly.
Man it seems like there is no good answer to this problem except for EBI style tie breaker rounds.
True submission only with no time limit is impracticable for live viewing.
Adding rules to encourage subs within a time limit never really seems to work.
You might be right. It would definitely increase the absolute number of subs. But the question would become whether they are the type of subs we want to see. You would run into guys taking a dive just for the money. I mean on the one hand it seems like it would be good because the fans would get to see more subs. But, the more educated viewers would always be wondering if a guy gave up the sub just for the money. I think we could find ourselves seeing a lot of questionable finishes.
On a conceptual level, "you both get paid bonuses as long as there is x result" is not too far off from what happens in worked pro-wrestling matches.
There's a big difference between boring draws and exciting draws, you gotta factor that in :)
Your match with Royler was the most exciting BJJ match I've seen (and ironically the best MMA fight I've seen was Hunt vs Bigfoot, also a draw). It's just never going to reach mainstream unless there's some dude just tapping everyone every event and there's a decisive winner people can get behind. The ref should at least raise neither of their hands at the end instead of both I think :)
I think it's hard to fix. No one likes to lose, instead of the guy about to win holding on and stalling to win by points, submission only flips it and has the guy about to lose shelling up to not get submitted and trying to last to the end of the match. Metamoris is full of elite level competitors so they're not going to get submitted easily if it's an even match. Look at the UFC I wouldn't be surprised if only one third of fights ended with a finish, it doesn't mean it's any less exciting.
I think a cage would help. It'd at least reduce the likelihood of it taking 10 minutes to get to the ground like in Vinny's match.
Excuse the double post and I say thing acknowledging I don't take my competitions as importantly as I should, but in a BJJ match if it doesn't hit the ground within say 2minutes can't the competitors just be just give the choice:
Does someone want to sit down?
1) 1 person says yes, done, go
2) 2 people say yes or no, flip a coin
Again, I obviously don't take competition as seriously as it should be taken*, but if i haven't hit the ground after 2 minutes have top side control for all I care, we are here to test our BJJ aren't we?
*All statements made above with a 5 win, 45 loss record
With the exception of the Diniz/Vinny match, I enjoyed the matches. Heck, I even enjoyed the 10 minutes of the Diniz match as it was cool seeing the rubber guard attempt.
From a practitioner's perspective, the matches have a lot going for them. JT vs Rory was incredible. I mean, JT is out of this world with his pressure and guard passing. Both speed and power, wow.
From a general audience perspective, of which I would venture there are little outside of the MMA fan-only who tunes in to watch someone like Rory, it's probably a problem.
Perhaps, one less match and increase by 10 minutes each match?
Or a round robin style of 5-10 minute matches in a particular "20lbs weight category" where you put 4 grapplers against each other for a large pot of money, kinda like the Good Fight does, where your wins are cumulative?
Poor Saku, did you notice the way he was walking onto the mats? His knees are way done. And he winced in pain when Renzo did that joke takedown at the end. His body is done.
He looked legitimately saddened that he couldn't pull it off. When he said that you could see it in his eyes he was sincere. The funny thing is in this submission only format I think he can still compete. He didn't have a lot of muscle, looked like he has shrank a lot. Makes me wonder what he did to train.
In the first 10 minutes when Renzo was laying in guard I kept thinking what would happen if this was another Pride Match, Saku would of been feeding him punches and elbows to make openings.
Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Renzo 1 in Pride is still my favorite submission victory of all time. I watched it with my little boy to show him what Catch Wrestling was, he was a bit leary of submissions for a while and when he watched that video he finally wanted to learn them. He cheered when Sakuraba pulled that double wrist lock with Renzo on his back.
I hope Saku considers continuing to compete in this format, with more time to train.
I really hope Saku returns
IMO extending rd length just make it worse those long matches stall out some of the action for fear of gassing, I think a yellow card penalty of some sort the trick is to keep people moving until a submission and no draws in high level like that you get to a point were just not losing is your goal. 2 high level guys both being defensive can get boring.
They should have paired the MMA fighters with someone in their weight class; probably would have seen more finishes.
Totally. I liked most of the matches a lot last night.
There have been 4 gi subs and 6 nogi subs. There have been 14 gi matches and 16 no-gi matches. The last 2 Metamoris cards have only had 2 gi matches between them, and the first Metamoris had 1 no-gi match.
I really don't think with Metamoris that the gi or no-gi thing matters much. I've always thought that exciting athletes with incentives to finish will be more likely to finish the match no matter what they're wearing. I am glad though that Metamoris is going more of a no-gi direction.
Change the rules for determine a winner. In wrestling you don't have to pin your opponent to get a win.
I think sub grappeling should be the same way. I don't see anything wrong getting a win by out scoring your opponent.
I mean you can ride a guy the whole match and get near subs in a row and the other guys just barely escapes a and at the end the match is ruled a draw is kinda silly.
Great action is great action tho, I can enjoy it either way!
This kills the live experience though which is probably the best part about Metamoris. They put on a great live show and the people that are showing up to it are what's helping build the momentum for the show.
I also didn't enjoy watching kumite. Just watching highlights of a match is not interesting for me for anything other than studying jits technique. Stall calls, money for subs, don't raise both their hands at the end in order to help create that culture incentive of we don't want draws etc. But at the end of the day we're talking about highly skilled, evenly matched JJ practitioners. I think it's less about making sure that every match has a submission and more about making sure every match has constant action. As pointed out by Eddie, some of the most exciting Metamoris matches have been draws.
This is why I like EBI better that Metamoris. With the sudden death system the draw is impossible.
Does anybody know that cradle that Sakuraba got Renzo in? I really want to learn it
Hook his head and leg and connect your hands. Preferably be on top. Pretty cutt'n dry.
How to attack or progress from the cradle is the trick. Cradle is pure control. And strong, but you have to release to become offensive.
I think you answered your own question. :) except it looked like it was really deep and almost had a guillotine. kinda like that "cryangle" where you pull off a triangle with one of the other person's legs in between.
Thank you guys
I have a whole cradle attack series:) I like to go to crucifix, back widow, and Im always looking for arm triangles and truck. All depends on if his arm is trapped or not. Just stating that learning to control and attack the cradle is a whole different story than catching the cradle.
I also feel that it is a weight classy sub series. If hes bigger, stronger and good, Ill settle them in cradle then transition to leg drag or 1000 kilo's. More control imo.
saku looked like he had a lot of old injuries, he must have arthritis almost everywhere, he took a lot of abuse. I wish this fight would have happened like 5 years ago, maybe it would have been more exciting, I was disapointed but I understand at their age, its not going to be the same.