Catching both legs with guard: random catch? Or something to build up?

Hey folks,

I've held myself back from asking this question for weeks for reasons that hopefully will be clear if you can read through my TLDR style of writing.

I'm catching a fairly punishing position on skilled opponents now that I only used to get on noobs. I'm trying to figure out whether this is a set up that I can develop, even attempt to understand systematically.

Yet, I am conscious that there are lots of weird positions that are quirks of an individual's style or just random catches that aren't really predictable and aren't worth understanding better.

I am hoping to get some advice as to which this is.

In case it helps, I have stubby little troll legs. I'm not catching this because I have dancer's legs. And if you do, I curse you. ;)

The Posish

I'm finding that I can often triangle my legs around my opponents legs while I am playing guard. At first, I got it from putting pressure down on the hips with my guard to keep the hips beat. Noobs would sometimes have this horrible idea: "Maybe I can squeeze through there like toothpaste from a tube." Nope. You're getting swept to mount or your back taken.

But now I'm finding that I'm catching it as people begin a guard pass. I'm kind of catching it all over the place and I'm trying to pay attention to where I am getting the position so that I can get the set up consciously.

If I can catch the thighs, it's an additional problem for you to worry about. Some people can find a moment and power their legs open. If they don't, I can make the problem worse. If I can catch the knees, it's bad. Good chance of a sweep or back take. If I can snag a lockdown one on one or both legs, it's real bad. This will probably end well for me.

I *think* I catch it the most when people try that most classic of guard passes: put a knee on the spine, pressure down on the hips, other leg off at an angle, elbow into the knee....etc. If I can catch them with their knees close together at step 1...

Any thoughts as to whether this is something that other people have had some success with? Or is it just something that comes up when opponents make technical mistakes, mistakes that are very unlikely to happen at higher levels?


~JJ

If I understand the position correctly, it's similar to something I've seen some people use in GI Grappling as an open guard sweep. I've also seen it as a counter to a sloppy no hands half guard pass no gi. You trap the pressing leg in there as well and then you have basically a double quarter guard, I've done that. I've never seen someone make a whole game out of it, but there is probably something there if you want to spend time on it. I think it has potential :) Hope this helps.

I am trying to imagine what you could possibly do from this position you are describing and I might be thinking of it in a way you are not describing, so do not fret if I make no sense :). I can honestly only picture this method working the way you described if your opponent is trying to escape 'like toothpaste from a tube' because they would be compromising their balance when they rise up to try to slip out of your legs in order to attempt a escape/pass. Other than that I think I would try to maintain as good of posture as I possibly can so I can just sit and wait it out. I would want to anticipate any guard opening movements while keeping my posture and go when you either release to go to something else or when you open guard to attempt a sweep, armbar, etc. Unless there is something I am not picturing correctly, I believe you would have to open up to attack (such as going for armbars, transitioning to a butterfly sweep, lockdown, etc.) and if so, I would simply stay relaxed with my legs wrapped up and keep everything proper until that moment comes. I honestly think the hardest one to deal with would be a lockdown from here, but if I win the grip/clinch battle, I can instantly buttocks compressor if I am more focused on keeping the control of the situation and moving when you do rather than trying to sneaking a leg or two out before or during your transitioning. The reason I would use the buttock compressor as a go-to in this situation is because I could get some form of control by locking down your hips before you decide to bump into me if you happen to catch both legs in a grapevine or something. Going from guard to half-guard (unless I am losing the clinch battle) you're most likely going to have to pummel into double underhooks during the transition to lockdown or even after the lockdown is in play which gives me a chance to negate the underhooks before it is an issue.

Unless you have great grips on me, I should be able to keep posture relatively easy due to the fact your legs are focused on my lower body. The higher the legs, the more posture control you have because more of your weight can be applied to keeping their posture controlled when you start attacking.

Once again, I would like to say I may be picturing this wrong in my head, but this is what I believe from my visualization.

I honestly can't imagine any game from this set-up unless your opponent tries to move first, which they will most likely know better not to do that at a higher level. I just can't imagine hitting anything from this position if my opponent were to do everything correctly posture/position wise, not trying to pass off-balance when you can easily sweep them, unless you open up and abandon your opponents legs. Even so, your legs at the time are not contributing to keeping their upper body's posture in a more favorable position to attack in the first place which means if this gets shut down, there is not a lot of attacks or favorable outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

I am trying to imagine what you could possibly do from this position you are describing and I might be thinking of it in a way you are not describing, so do not fret if I make no sense :). I can honestly only picture this method working the way you described if your opponent is trying to escape 'like toothpaste from a tube' because they would be compromising their balance when they rise up to try to slip out of your legs in order to attempt a escape/pass. Other than that I think I would try to maintain as good of posture as I possibly can so I can just sit and wait it out. I would want to anticipate any guard opening movements while keeping my posture and go when you either release to go to something else or when you open guard to attempt a sweep, armbar, etc. Unless there is something I am not picturing correctly, I believe you would have to open up to attack (such as going for armbars, transitioning to a butterfly sweep, lockdown, etc.) and if so, I would simply stay relaxed with my legs wrapped up and keep everything proper until that moment comes. I honestly think the hardest one to deal with would be a lockdown from here, but if I win the grip/clinch battle, I can instantly buttocks compressor if I am more focused on keeping the control of the situation and moving when you do rather than trying to sneaking a leg or two out before or during your transitioning. The reason I would use the buttock compressor as a go-to in this situation is because I could get some form of control by locking down your hips before you decide to bump into me if you happen to catch both legs in a grapevine or something. Going from guard to half-guard (unless I am losing the clinch battle) you're most likely going to have to pummel into double underhooks during the transition to lockdown or even after the lockdown is in play which gives me a chance to negate the underhooks before it is an issue.

Unless you have great grips on me, I should be able to keep posture relatively easy due to the fact your legs are focused on my lower body. The higher the legs, the more posture control you have because more of your weight can be applied to keeping their posture controlled when you start attacking.

Once again, I would like to say I may be picturing this wrong in my head, but this is what I believe from my visualization.

I honestly can't imagine any game from this set-up unless your opponent tries to move first, which they will most likely know better not to do that at a higher level. I just can't imagine hitting anything from this position if my opponent were to do everything correctly posture/position wise, not trying to pass off-balance when you can easily sweep them, unless you open up and abandon your opponents legs. Even so, your legs at the time are not contributing to keeping their upper body's posture in a more favorable position to attack in the first place which means if this gets shut down, there is not a lot of attacks or favorable outcomes.

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If you have both of their ankles trapped AND both of there knees are on the same side, you have game for sure. There is a super easy sweep where you scoop your hips underneath them and some options off that as well. High level guys use it some if its what I think it is, its just the multitude of setups that allow you to use a guard regularly that is missing. If he can find that, he might have something :) I call the position double quarter guard and I've taught it and some entrys in my classes as early as 4 or so years go. The fist person I saw formally teach it was Jeff Glover when I was his dummy while he was teaching private lessons. You MUST have both their knees on the same side though. That is unless you've developed trouble shoots for that that I don't know about yet.

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

Hey folks,

I've held myself back from asking this question for weeks for reasons that hopefully will be clear if you can read through my TLDR style of writing.

I'm catching a fairly punishing position on skilled opponents now that I only used to get on noobs. I'm trying to figure out whether this is a set up that I can develop, even attempt to understand systematically.

Yet, I am conscious that there are lots of weird positions that are quirks of an individual's style or just random catches that aren't really predictable and aren't worth understanding better.

I am hoping to get some advice as to which this is.

In case it helps, I have stubby little troll legs. I'm not catching this because I have dancer's legs. And if you do, I curse you. ;)

The Posish

I'm finding that I can often triangle my legs around my opponents legs while I am playing guard. At first, I got it from putting pressure down on the hips with my guard to keep the hips beat. Noobs would sometimes have this horrible idea: "Maybe I can squeeze through there like toothpaste from a tube." Nope. You're getting swept to mount or your back taken.

But now I'm finding that I'm catching it as people begin a guard pass. I'm kind of catching it all over the place and I'm trying to pay attention to where I am getting the position so that I can get the set up consciously.

If I can catch the thighs, it's an additional problem for you to worry about. Some people can find a moment and power their legs open. If they don't, I can make the problem worse. If I can catch the knees, it's bad. Good chance of a sweep or back take. If I can snag a lockdown one on one or both legs, it's real bad. This will probably end well for me.

I *think* I catch it the most when people try that most classic of guard passes: put a knee on the spine, pressure down on the hips, other leg off at an angle, elbow into the knee....etc. If I can catch them with their knees close together at step 1...

Any thoughts as to whether this is something that other people have had some success with? Or is it just something that comes up when opponents make technical mistakes, mistakes that are very unlikely to happen at higher levels?


~JJ

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The black belt I've been training with lately (Marcelo Monteiro) likes to do something along these lines. Gi and no gi. If I stand up to open his guard, before I create enough leverage to pry his legs open, he'll open his guard willingly causing his legs to go from around my hip/lower back (as is customary in closed guard) to fall down towards my thigh/knee region, at which point he'll close his guard back up. He's even gone down to the ankles, and it's made little difference if any. At this point, he'll usually sit up and hug my legs. To counter at this point, the only thing I could think of was to throw my hands out on the mat and try to, as you say, 'squeeze out like toothpaste', but then I feel my back getting taken so I immediately bail top position and give him the sweep instead of my back, hoping to at least salvage some sort of guard or to go for a submission in transition. The lesson for defending is to not have my legs too close together and be ready to kill one of his legs and advance to his half-guard as soon as physically possible. Or, go for footlocks. It's not so much that I made a technical mistake in getting caught; he just opens his guard first, before I have a chance to pry it open. He takes the initiative, and that makes all the difference in the world. He's told me that he's ready to enter deep-half from this straightaway if the guy gets one of his legs out, so there's something else to explore.

Typing on a forum, there can often be misinterpretation since we can't see the move and are only left to describe it in words. But if this example sounds like what you've been playing around with, then it's a legit game. This guy is a fourth degree black belt and is still using it and owning people with it, so I don't see why it couldn't be developed on your end.

Sidenote: he too has short legs, albeit strong as hell.

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

If I understand the position correctly, it's similar to something I've seen some people use in GI Grappling as an open guard sweep. I've also seen it as a counter to a sloppy no hands half guard pass no gi. You trap the pressing leg in there as well and then you have basically a double quarter guard, I've done that. I've never seen someone make a whole game out of it, but there is probably something there if you want to spend time on it. I think it has potential :) Hope this helps.

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That's really helpful as a way to expand my poor terminology.

If I get it to stage 1, it's sort of double half-guard. I have their thighs and knees pinched together but I don't have my legs triangled yet. If they can get their knees on the floor and deny grips, they might get out. I'm working on a counter to that, a sort of hip bump sweep.

If I get to stage 2, it's somewhere between double half and double quarter. I have their knees pinched together. I've probably triangled my legs. If they try to stand out of it, it doesn't matter which way I push or pull them, they're going to fall down. I mentally refer to this as "the tree sweep" because people fall like a tree that's been chopped on and pushed in the right direction.
If I get to stage 3, it's double lockdown half. Legs triangle around knees with a lockdown. I have all kinds of time to compromise the base and turn a 180 or take the back (if I can get underhooks).

Referring me to Jeff is helpful. Is there anything you like to do from double quarter? I'm enjoying playing with the position, but I'm not going to be creating a "double halfguard style" of jiu jitsu. lol :D

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

If you have both of their ankles trapped AND both of there knees are on the same side, you have game for sure. There is a super easy sweep where you scoop your hips underneath them and some options off that as well. High level guys use it some if its what I think it is, its just the multitude of setups that allow you to use a guard regularly that is missing. If he can find that, he might have something :) I call the position double quarter guard and I've taught it and some entrys in my classes as early as 4 or so years go. The fist person I saw formally teach it was Jeff Glover when I was his dummy while he was teaching private lessons. You MUST have both their knees on the same side though. That is unless you've developed trouble shoots for that that I don't know about yet.

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Oh, in double quarter, you're on your side?

I'm on my back. I basically have both his legs in my guard. I'm usually working to get on my side. This is all really helpful though, I think I'm on the right track. I'll play with it some more and see what I can weave it into.

Thank you for your patience and response Brian.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

The black belt I've been training with lately (Marcelo Monteiro) likes to do something along these lines. Gi and no gi. If I stand up to open his guard, before I create enough leverage to pry his legs open, he'll open his guard willingly causing his legs to go from around my hip/lower back (as is customary in closed guard) to fall down towards my thigh/knee region, at which point he'll close his guard back up. He's even gone down to the ankles, and it's made little difference if any. At this point, he'll usually sit up and hug my legs. To counter at this point, the only thing I could think of was to throw my hands out on the mat and try to, as you say, 'squeeze out like toothpaste', but then I feel my back getting taken so I immediately bail top position and give him the sweep instead of my back, hoping to at least salvage some sort of guard or to go for a submission in transition. The lesson for defending is to not have my legs too close together and be ready to kill one of his legs and advance to his half-guard as soon as physically possible. Or, go for footlocks. It's not so much that I made a technical mistake in getting caught; he just opens his guard first, before I have a chance to pry it open. He takes the initiative, and that makes all the difference in the world. He's told me that he's ready to enter deep-half from this straightaway if the guy gets one of his legs out, so there's something else to explore.

Typing on a forum, there can often be misinterpretation since we can't see the move and are only left to describe it in words. But if this example sounds like what you've been playing around with, then it's a legit game. This guy is a fourth degree black belt and is still using it and owning people with it, so I don't see why it couldn't be developed on your end.

Sidenote: he too has short legs, albeit strong as hell.

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I feel like I'm following you.

Yes, I started hitting this much more after going to Redzovik's open guard seminar. "Open your guard before he does." OK, I'm doing that, and sometimes, catching them out.

I've been enjoying trying to get underhooks and sneaking around to the back. It's hard to stop without accepting a sweep to mount. How do you base when you effectively have one leg and no hands on the floor?

I've been thinking about trying to grip the legs with my arms as well if my opponent gets all the way to standing: I've had people knee slice out of it if I have more of a double quarter position.

I'll look for that deep half entry.

Eh. Something to play with. Thank you Arman. :D

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

I feel like I'm following you.

Yes, I started hitting this much more after going to Redzovik's open guard seminar. "Open your guard before he does." OK, I'm doing that, and sometimes, catching them out.

I've been enjoying trying to get underhooks and sneaking around to the back. It's hard to stop without accepting a sweep to mount. How do you base when you effectively have one leg and no hands on the floor?

I've been thinking about trying to grip the legs with my arms as well if my opponent gets all the way to standing: I've had people knee slice out of it if I have more of a double quarter position.

I'll look for that deep half entry.

Eh. Something to play with. Thank you Arman. :D

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Can't tell you how happy it makes me that you remembered Prof. Adem's #1 principle of playing open guard. "If you open your guard, you'll play open guard. If your opponent opens your guard, he's going to smash you.":)

In case you wanted a recap on the seminar, here's the link to Open Guard Translated, the six principles of playing open guard to live and die by. I hit up BMac's seminar this past weekend here in Indianapolis and he talked mainly concepts and principles, in favor of different 'moves'. Jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu, and legit guys are legit guys, so I found a lot of stuff from the seminar that Brandon mentioned aligned directly with what Adem mentions in the video. Principles are the name of the game. It sounds like you've began taking some of these and making them your own, which is what it's all about at the end of the day. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnq9mN2odAg

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

I've been enjoying trying to get underhooks and sneaking around to the back.

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One detail that Brandon mentioned at his seminar about underhooks: essentially, fighting for underhooks is all about who can make the smallest circle with their pummel. He used a couple examples to show how efficient a guy can be. You don't want to pummel your whole arm through. It's far too obvious. You want to hide you underhooking arm as if you're holding a concealed weapon, and only when you have the necessary space, you pummel your hand through and the arm follows. Your shoulder is a great tool for managing a guys attempt at getting the underhook on you. Shoulder shrug, shoulder shrug, shoulder shrug. It's a sensitivity thing, but the underhook battle has a lot of subtle details that can only come with time & practice.

There's a lot of text on this page so this may have been said but Aoki used the same concept from top where he broke that guys arm in half and then flipped him off

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

Is there anything you like to do from double quarter?
~JJ

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Scoop my hips underneath him for the sweep (hip scoop sweep) and arm drag or duck under or prison guard to back take (all of those 3 depend on what he's doing, that's just ways to set up the back take so its really just those two things). I should disclaimer I us this a little but not a lot. Its a specific counter for me that doesn't come up often.

Sorry I didn't see anything from this position before so I must have been assuming there isn't much game from here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it easy to fend off attacks from this position? I feel like basic posture and hand fighting until they open up feels like it would shut it down. I never said it wouldn't work, I just purposed how I would go about defending it and I feel like to pull it off requires your opponent going into it (like you mentioned a specific counter that doesn't come around often in 1 possible scenario.) I feel like if I could keep myself composed in the guard they would have to move if I were winning the posture/grip battle.

Please correct this if it is wrong but these are my worries with this maneuver:

-Basic guard maintenance would shut down all options (Posture, not allowing wrist control, etc.)
-If I am on the defensive, I wouldn't have to really worry until you would have to open up to transition (assuming I could win the grip battle and maintain posture.)
-Harder for the bottom person to breakdown someone with legs being tied up so low.

I have never seen anything from this position, so don't beat me down too bad explaining it to me if these are stupid ^ :)

Might just be overthinking this, but doesn't doing the proper positioning and hand fighting in guard stop nearly everything from guard? So that is not a good way to articulate my concern... I guess I mean are these concerns HARDER to deal with when your legs are tied up low on their legs? :) Thank you and sorry for the confusion

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Sorry I didn't see anything from this position before so I must have been assuming there isn't much game from here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it easy to fend off attacks from this position? I feel like basic posture and hand fighting until they open up feels like it would shut it down. I never said it wouldn't work, I just purposed how I would go about defending it and I feel like to pull it off requires your opponent going into it (like you mentioned a specific counter that doesn't come around often in 1 possible scenario.) I feel like if I could keep myself composed in the guard they would have to move if I were winning the posture/grip battle.

Please correct this if it is wrong but these are my worries with this maneuver:

-Basic guard maintenance would shut down all options (Posture, not allowing wrist control, etc.)
-If I am on the defensive, I wouldn't have to really worry until you would have to open up to transition (assuming I could win the grip battle and maintain posture.)
-Harder for the bottom person to breakdown someone with legs being tied up so low.

I have never seen anything from this position, so don't beat me down too bad explaining it to me if these are stupid ^ :)

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How long a guy holds out depends on his base.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

How long a guy holds out depends on his base.

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Interesting. Is it easier to maintain defense when someone is around your legs instead of body if you are not standing? I wouldn't want to be standing if my legs were together in the first place. The only reason I care is if I am using this position and hitting an arm drag or an arm triangle, that means I beat my opponent in the arm fighting that could have taken place in a different variation of guard in which I had my legs to help me (such as an extended lock down, high guard, etc.) I essentially could hit that move if I was in just about any guard variation I want. If the specific sweeps/techniques from this position is a rare occurrence, it is good to know, but not really good to practice as a go-to position/maneuver IMO. This is due to the fact that the most available options (back takes, arm drags, etc.) are available in more versatile variants of guard such as butterfly guard, half guard, open guard, closed guard, etc. I feel like to be a strong maneuver it has to have features that give you good control and/or options. If it is taking away from my control or leverage when I am arm fighting and gives me only a couple low percentage options, I would rather spend my time practicing some Gogo clinches or something that will come up more often and work more often :)

I am interested in exploring this position a little my own rather than just make assumptions that go untested. I have had my legs tied up before and thought nothing of it, just never seen anything that works from it. I can picture the hip scooping sweep getting under them, however I might just not be aware of the control someone with some good experience in this would do any different. I never said it was a bad idea, I just feel it needs more substance to be something I would be comfortable practicing to add in my game unless I am still unaware of the options. Please let me know more if you have more info :)

Please don't try to vouch for it by saying black belts do it and they crush people not at their level... They are legit blackbelts, they could toy with you with anything they choose.
I knew a teacher that told me one time that, "You know, Royce Gracie doesn't like the electric chair because all you have to do is head scoop to stop it," (Someone tell Royler :O)
and I said, "To be fair, I could do exactly what Royce wants me to do and he could do something from Youtube for the first time he has ever tried it and still crush me I bet."
He responded with "Yeah, they sometimes have bad arguments."

Can anyone post any videos if they see this in a high level roll or comp? I feel like the position itself is relatively weak compared to other forms of guard in terms of options that are only available in that type of guard without transitioning to a new position. If the sweep turns out to be fairly easy or I just haven't noticed how often people put their legs together, then I am all for it :)
I am just making sure I got the most from people who have dealt with this position more so I am picking your brains lol. I feel like every option has a place and time, however you are better off putting your time in practicing something that is higher percentage and less situational like a double leg than something that requires a specific set up like a Steven Seagull wrist lock. (Not saying this is a Seagull move lol)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Sorry I didn't see anything from this position before so I must have been assuming there isn't much game from here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it easy to fend off attacks from this position? I feel like basic posture and hand fighting until they open up feels like it would shut it down. I never said it wouldn't work, I just purposed how I would go about defending it and I feel like to pull it off requires your opponent going into it (like you mentioned a specific counter that doesn't come around often in 1 possible scenario.) I feel like if I could keep myself composed in the guard they would have to move if I were winning the posture/grip battle.

Please correct this if it is wrong but these are my worries with this maneuver:

-Basic guard maintenance would shut down all options (Posture, not allowing wrist control, etc.)
-If I am on the defensive, I wouldn't have to really worry until you would have to open up to transition (assuming I could win the grip battle and maintain posture.)
-Harder for the bottom person to breakdown someone with legs being tied up so low.

I have never seen anything from this position, so don't beat me down too bad explaining it to me if these are stupid ^ :)

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Hey man. No, I think you're following perfectly. I think if you could feel it (from top or bottom) you would see that the thing that makes this position difficult for the top guy is that I have time. If I've tied your feet together, your mobility is *greatly* compromised. Can't go forward. Can't go back. Can't go to the sides. You can sit down and grip fight, but if I've got the double lockdown, you can't even sit down anymore. I can actually *whip.* You've got to think about your hands and your feet at the same time because I'm trying to get control of both for long enough to get you going in *any direction.* Once you're going, you won't be able to stop effectively.

I can also arm drag. You can't counter-arm drag because you can't step. If your arms are on the mat, I'm trying to take your back.

I don't want to be anything other than humble here: I have failed to get the arm drag from "double half" on high level belts because they have magic and skills. I mess it up on white belts maybe 30% of the time because it's new. There's a lot about the position I don't understand yet. Hence the conversation: is anyone else playing with this? You understand.

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Might just be overthinking this, but doesn't doing the proper positioning and hand fighting in guard stop nearly everything from guard? So that is not a good way to articulate my concern... I guess I mean are these concerns HARDER to deal with when your legs are tied up low on their legs? :) Thank you and sorry for the confusion

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You make a good point. And here, I think grip fighting is your only way to survive for long enough to get your legs separated. You have less tools. Against a skilled player, my calculation is that you're one misstep, one underhook, one whip, one push away from getting your back taken or getting swept.

It should also be said that one of the things that got me thinking about this more (I wasn't sure, but I've reviewed the video and now I remember) is that I saw Garry Tonon do something similar. Months ago, that gave me confidence that I was on to something, so I started looking for it more.

https://youtu.be/Ko5481Tyc58?t=2m41s

You'll see him score a takedown from a "stage 1 double half guard" with the guy standing. Dude goes down like a tree. I do stuff like that a little, not so explosive because I don't want to wreck knees. I like to arm drag from there.

When I get it, the person is usually beginning to stand to pass my guard. My recollection is:

1) They are trying to post on my chest and slide legs side to side to flank me. That "apart, together, apart, together" movement let's me catch them at the "together" moment. Naturally, being caught out that way, they tend to drop their base to avoid being swept immediately. Then the game begins.

2) At the beginning of knee slice guard passes when their legs are close together.

The feedback I'm getting is that it isn't easy to fend off the attacks. One dude told me he felt like things were going from bad to worse and that there was nothing he could do about it.

That's a decent place to start. Heh.

The format makes this discussion difficult: I'm sorry this is so verbose. If you're bored, please forgive a white belt's ramblings. :)

Thank you so much for the wonderful response! :)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Can anyone post any videos if they see this in a high level roll or comp? I feel like the position itself is relatively weak compared to other forms of guard in terms of options that are only available in that type of guard without transitioning to a new position. If the sweep turns out to be fairly easy or I just haven't noticed how often people put their legs together, then I am all for it :)

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Dude, that's super premature. I'm not evangelizing this thing. I blush to even think to say "I'm not evangelizing this thing yet." It's so premature that to add the yet makes it sound like I plan to evangelize it ever.

I'm a white belt. I have a white belt mind and understanding. I don't even ask the right questions sometimes and when I do, I don't always understand the answers.

But I do know to ask "Is anybody else doing this?" And I know that if nobody is, odds are good that it isn't that smart.

I'll play with this for a few years, earn a couple belts and if I'm still interested when I'm a purple or brown belt, if I've refined and demonstrated it, yeah, I'll post some comp footage and get into some arguments about it.

For now, I'm just a white belt asking some questions (and answering them).

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Thank you so much for the wonderful response! :)

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I hope it was helpful. It was definitely lengthy. :)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Please don't try to vouch for it by saying black belts do it and they crush people not at their level... They are legit blackbelts, they could toy with you with anything they choose.
I knew a teacher that told me one time that, "You know, Royce Gracie doesn't like the electric chair because all you have to do is head scoop to stop it," (Someone tell Royler :O)
and I said, "To be fair, I could do exactly what Royce wants me to do and he could do something from Youtube for the first time he has ever tried it and still crush me I bet."
He responded with "Yeah, they sometimes have bad arguments."

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Respectfully, it's this type of attitude I've seen among certain people that make me question if they'll ever reach that level. Black belts aren't Gods. They have to obey certain principles no matter who they're training with. They can't disregard a guy just because he's a lower rank. I've caught black belts in moves before. Sweeps and submissions. I'm not gonna write a list of who or with what, but a vast majority of the time when it happens, it happens because I'm the first to act, I commit to it 100%, and I fight tooth and nail for what I want. They've been around longer, sure. They have great instincts, immaculate timing, and a deep understanding of the art. Without a doubt. But to say they could toy with you with anything they choose is basically admitting defeat and admitting that you don't know shit about the art. A lot of black belts get to where they are by having a bread and butter, essentially having moves that they can catch virtually anyone in. Not everyone is a Nathan Orchard or an Eddie Bravo that can cram 50 submissions down your throat in a matter of seconds. They're nevertheless solid overall, which is the reason they've gotten to that level of achievement in the first place. That's precisely what a black belt is. An achievement. It's not a guarantee that they'll catch anyone and everyone below their level, all day every day, with whatever they feel like. Nevertheless, you'll see time and again where a lower level guy doesn't put up much of a fight because he doesn't think he's worthy of competing on that level. That paradoxically is part of what puts him in that lower level, at least from a mental standpoint. In any case, earlier I was referring to Monteirro's ability to sweep everyone in his association with his guard game. The guy has over 30 black belts under him. I wouldn't call that "not at [his] level." You're basically saying a black belt that's never berimboloed before (or played x-guard, or rubber guard, it doesn't matter) could waste a lower belt with that type of game just because he's a black belt. It doesn't work like that. If I can obey the basic fundamental concepts of jiu jitsu that I've picked up from several high level guys along the way and I mean LIVE AND DIE by these concepts, keep them guessing, and make them work, then it becomes a good fight. There's no guarantees, and let's be real...safe money is probably on them. I may get tapped a vast majority of the time I roll with them, but without exception it's always beautiful to me because I can detect the precise moment where they believed in what they were doing a little bit more (or a lot more) than myself. It's that precise moment that you feel the years of experience come to fruition and the mental strength they have to catch something. You don't need a color around your waist to start thinking like that. I hear people say all the time "oh he's a black belt so he's supposed to tap me" or "I don't mind losing to them cuz they're a black belt". That's a load of crap. I don't mind losing to someone that puts me in a checkmate. I never think to myself "oh this guy is a black belt so I ought to lose." At the end of the day, if they're a legit black belt, then the mats won't lie.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

Respectfully, it's this type of attitude I've seen among certain people that make me question if they'll ever reach that level....At the end of the day, if they're a legit black belt, then the mats won't lie.

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Might be stupid of me to step between two blue belts and play peacemaker, but, hey, I've never claimed to be smart. I'll give it a shot and then I'll step aside.

I make two observations:

1) Arman, it sounds like you took what he said personally. Am I misreading you? I'm not sure Carson meant it that way. This format (forums) is frustrating on all sides.

2) Carson, you point out, and rightly so, that black belt dudes can do things well and naturally that lower belt folks can't (not as well nor as naturally). But I've also observed that many, if not most, professors spend their sparring time with their students grooming them, pruning them, shaping them and, possibly, some time playing with things they wouldn't throw at their brown belt students (yet). But throwing weak, fake stuff at them because they can't defend it? That's like the BJJ version of trolling. I think almost anybody could get distracted by something like that and it could throw off their training.

Do you have any reason to believe that professor Monteiro was?

It's not personal, I know that. However, I often see that general way of thinking that black belts are this mystical figure to be all too common. It can be a mental block, and it needn't be. If the guy is truly a legit black belt, he should hold his own w/o question. I took his comment as a defeatist sorta way of thinking, not as a personal shot by any means. It's a way of thinking that more recently, I've made it a point to mentally overcome and not sell myself short in my conviction in playing my game. ForGET about their belt color and just play your game. I guess when I read it it struck a chord. Wasn't personal. I never take things personal, especially online. Even if they are.

In regards to your question, I know for a fact that Prof. Monteiro and any other black belt I roll with doesn't/shouldn't hand me things. I don't feel he does in the slightest. I was merely remarking about the general thought that a belt color makes you invincible, which is how I perceived his post. It doesn't.

Any videos?

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

It's not personal, I know that. However, I often see that general way of thinking that black belts are this mystical figure to be all too common. It can be a mental block, and it needn't be. If the guy is truly a legit black belt, he should hold his own w/o question. I took his comment as a defeatist sorta way of thinking, not as a personal shot by any means. It's a way of thinking that more recently, I've made it a point to mentally overcome and not sell myself short in my conviction in playing my game. ForGET about their belt color and just play your game. I guess when I read it it struck a chord. Wasn't personal. I never take things personal, especially online. Even if they are.

In regards to your question, I know for a fact that Prof. Monteiro and any other black belt I roll with doesn't/shouldn't hand me things. I don't feel he does in the slightest. I was merely remarking about the general thought that a belt color makes you invincible, which is how I perceived his post. It doesn't.

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It's not that I don't believe a lower level can catch a higher level, it is just a legit professor or high level black belt should have things down so much you can try tooth and nail and guess what? Nothing. I have a couple black belts at my school that let you put them in so deep that you think "OMG! I am going to get him, no one in the history of me being this deep in this move has ever escaped!" and all of a sudden they just shimmy out of it with hardly any effort and the tightest choke or arm bar just melts away like butter in your arms. They aren't invincible, I have seen some world level brown belts putting it on a new black belt and even giving one of the "monk like" black belts a hard time after he had a back injury, but even the world level purple belts have nothing on them. It's not even that they do techniques any different than someone that is good at a lower level, but their timing and execution is unlike anything else. They defend and escape at will at any point no matter how deep in anything, usually letting you get deep into things. That is my experience with high level black belts. I know everyone has trained with at least one person like that in their career :)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

It's not that I don't believe a lower level can catch a higher level, it is just a legit professor or high level black belt should have things down so much you can try tooth and nail and guess what? Nothing. I have a couple black belts at my school that let you put them in so deep that you think "OMG! I am going to get him, no one in the history of me being this deep in this move has ever escaped!" and all of a sudden they just shimmy out of it with hardly any effort and the tightest choke or arm bar just melts away like butter in your arms. They aren't invincible, I have seen some world level brown belts putting it on a new black belt and even giving one of the "monk like" black belts a hard time after he had a back injury, but even the world level purple belts have nothing on them. It's not even that they do techniques any different than someone that is good at a lower level, but their timing and execution is unlike anything else. They defend and escape at will at any point no matter how deep in anything, usually letting you get deep into things. That is my experience with high level black belts. I know everyone has trained with at least one person like that in their career :)

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For sure I've had experiences where I get a guy deep in a hole, but their experience/savvy overcomes any threat I might pose. The sweep or submission usually has to be clean and catch'em by surprise, but it can happen. Believing is the name of the game. Mentally, I try to act like I belong there, in an advantageous position. The range is pretty wide though. We're talking about different age groups, athletic levels, experience levels, and lineages. A lot of factors come into play. A Gracie Barra black belt would have a different style than a 10p black belt, as would a Gracie Academy black belt, Atos black belt, etc. etc. A 30 year old black belt would probably pose more of an immediate threat than a 50 year old black belt. A fourth or fifth degree black belt or even a coral or red belt would probably have layers to their game that a 1st or 2nd degree hasn't developed yet. Again, they got the black belt for a reason. Not every black belt I've rolled with has had the range of attacks and flat out danger factor as Nathan Orchard for example, but I'll be damned if I've met one that didn't have a pristine defensive foundation. I think it's a good habit to separate yourself from the rank with anyone you roll with and let it flow. Some might disagree, particularly on the merit that it's "good to see where you stand", and I could very well see their point. The reason I think this way though is because I never want to sell myself short and mentally psyche myself into thinking I can't catch someone, or just as importantly, get complacent vs. a lower rank and expect that they can't catch me. For all I know, that dude walking in with a 3 or 4 stripe white belt has been training for less than a year but is the next BJ Penn, straight up taking privates with Ralph Gracie 5 days a week. Extreme example I know, but you never know who might walk through that door.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymtRMD3y1L8

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Originally Posted by Mario Lopez Alvarez

Any videos?

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White belts do not simply post videos to the 10th Planet forums... ;)

Once I have a little more to show, I might post a video asking for criticism. If I understand the rules correctly, that would be ok as long as I'm not posing as a dude teaching anything (much less teaching 10pjj).

Got the position twice last night. Almost had double lockdown but rushed the sweep it and lost the position.

I picked up a sweep last night from a blue belt who immediately recognized how much trouble he was in in 'stage 1 double half' or 'low full guard.' He told me to block the shoulder and "just push him over." It worked of course. But will it work on an opponent that isn't compliantly teaching me? We'll see.

So I've got a lot of work to do to before I subject this to further criticism. For now, I'm just trying to find out if anybody out there has done something similar.

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Originally Posted by Sean Gamble

//video

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Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thanks!

Yay! A video :) The entry from someone standing looks way easier that the way I imagined it. I thought you were getting here from guard with your opponent sitting or trying to stand and pass from closed guard and somehow wrapping their legs up aha

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

Yay! A video :) The entry from someone standing looks way easier that the way I imagined it. I thought you were getting here from guard with your opponent sitting or trying to stand and pass from closed guard and somehow wrapping their legs up aha

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Actually, that's exactly how I catch it...mostly full guard but also traditional half and lock down.

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Originally Posted by Tony "The Goods" Garcia

Actually, that's exactly how I catch it...mostly full guard but also traditional half and lock down.

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It's time to play with this new tool :) This is why I love discussing technique on this forum, even if I come from a skeptical POV sometimes, I always learn something :D

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Originally Posted by Sean Gamble

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymtRMD3y1L8

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Well that proves its effectiveness

I was fooling around with this for a while. We called it whale guard because I was fat and lazy when I started playing with it. I haven't used it in a while but it was super high percentage when I was using it.

I would always try to work my way to the back forcing my opponent to post with the other hand on the other side. I would pick that hand for the sweep. There were a couple of other options. I used to hit an arm triangle from bottom similar to the one from lockdown and also the kimura is often there.

I will go back to it this week and see if anything else pops into my memory.

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Originally Posted by MikeW

I was fooling around with this for a while. We called it whale guard because I was fat and lazy when I started playing with it. I haven't used it in a while but it was super high percentage when I was using it.

I would always try to work my way to the back forcing my opponent to post with the other hand on the other side. I would pick that hand for the sweep. There were a couple of other options. I used to hit an arm triangle from bottom similar to the one from lockdown and also the kimura is often there.

I will go back to it this week and see if anything else pops into my memory.

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That's exactly what I'm talking about lol. Those are the same subs I used to find myself catching.

UPDATE: I was dummy swept like a dummy by a black belt at my school yesterday. I haven't seen it played with yet so it caught me totally off guard, but I see where it comes up now :) I just couldn't believe the timing of it after this discussion. I think it's because I started standing passing lately and trying to work more top, which I typically don't do. Now I am open for this stuff though and can see where it hits easier. I've had my legs wrapped up, but most of the time wrestler style so I never attributed it to having game, just thought it was a wrestler thing if you can get their legs together that's great for the takedown, but it's hard to catch unless you get the timing down and have more options that just blast though a takedown with it and get your head pushed which is why I assumed it was just a wrestler thing :)

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

UPDATE: I was dummy swept like a dummy by a black belt at my school yesterday. I haven't seen it played with yet so it caught me totally off guard, but I see where it comes up now :) I just couldn't believe the timing of it after this discussion. I think it's because I started standing passing lately and trying to work more top, which I typically don't do. Now I am open for this stuff though and can see where it hits easier. I've had my legs wrapped up, but most of the time wrestler style so I never attributed it to having game, just thought it was a wrestler thing if you can get their legs together that's great for the takedown, but it's hard to catch unless you get the timing down and have more options that just blast though a takedown with it and get your head pushed which is why I assumed it was just a wrestler thing :)

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Yes! I am definitely seeing it as an option against some standing passes.

I'm taking notes. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJqb...ature=youtu.be

Octopus Half. Some interesting options which combo with lockdown tech. Looks like a combination threat with the electric chair. Might work nogi.

Definitely related to this concept of catching both legs, so i thought I would update this ancient thread with the knowledge.

I think I'm going to try this. I'm going to try making them catch their balance, by basing with an arm. Once they do, triangle!