Why don't EBI Overtime rules allow full mount (or side control)?

It seems like so many EBI overtime matches that start in back mount end up with one guy "escaping" to full mount, and then the round ending. This seems a little ridiculous since one competitor is still in a dominant position, and (as Conor McGregor just found out) it ignores the interchangeability between full and back mount that make both positions so deadly in our art. Indeed, when I watch highest level matches that end in submission there is often a chain of subs that can travel through multiple positions before ending in a point of no return. So I have two questions:

1. Why not continue the "riding time" from back to full mount (or side control) until one competitor escapes to a neutral position (half, closed, top, open, feet) and is not actively defending any submissions?

2. Why not have the opening OT round still be sub-only but starting from a dominant position (i.e. start from back, both guys have 2 mins to submit even if one escapes)?

Length of OT rounds would get out of control. You have to draw the line somewhere, and somewhere short.

As above and it's about escaping a threatening submission, not a dominant position.

It will continue into mount if a armtriangle is being threatened or something along those lines.

Think the OT rules are pretty spot on personally.

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Originally Posted by Tim Bruhn

As above and it's about escaping a threatening submission, not a dominant position.

It will continue into mount if a armtriangle is being threatened or something along those lines.

Think the OT rules are pretty spot on personally.

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Yes, but simply turning from back mount to full mount is not escaping anything, which is why you would never normally do that except as a desperation move. And the back with just seatbelt is not really threatening a submission-- it's just a dominant position.

I've always thought of it in terms of the back being more dominant than the mount. Once you escape the back and end up in mount it is an escape to a less dominant position.

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Originally Posted by Princess Guillotine

Yes, but simply turning from back mount to full mount is not escaping anything, which is why you would never normally do that except as a desperation move. And the back with just seatbelt is not really threatening a submission-- it's just a dominant position.

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Yeah ok, I'll accept that. Guess the grips for me make it more 'threatening a sub' for me. I know I'd rather be mounted that someone locked on my back, both hooks and seatbelt.

Could just be me. I get what you're saying though.

Jerry Walker & Tim Bruhn are correct.

going from the back to mount or side control is going backwards

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

Jerry Walker & Tim Bruhn are correct.

going from the back to mount or side control is going backwards

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I get your point, but tell that to Kron Gracie. Competitors are allowed to go from back to truck, so how is that different from back to full mount?

the overtime positions are "dead zones". meaning, they are positions where the entire focus is on the kill. limb isolation based positioning is different from body control based positioning.

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

the overtime positions are "dead zones". meaning, they are positions where the entire focus is on the kill. limb isolation based positioning is different from body control based positioning.

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I don't know if having the back with only seatbelt is really isolating the neck because the opponent has his arms in to defend. Most EBI competitors choose the back in an effort to lock on a body triangle and win via riding time, not get a RNC. Allowing full mount (and side control?) would force the back-mounted opponent to actually have to escape to a neutral position, thus opening up more submission opportunities in the process. Imagine what this would look like: an opponent in OT turns from back to full mount; he knows the clock is ticking so he frantically bucks and rolls and pushes on the knee; then BAM, mounted triangle and he taps.

Like stated above, it's mostly a time issue. And also the truck is a way better place than the mount, so is spider web

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Originally Posted by Princess Guillotine

I don't know if having the back with only seatbelt is really isolating the neck because the opponent has his arms in to defend. Most EBI competitors choose the back in an effort to lock on a body triangle and win via riding time, not get a RNC. Allowing full mount (and side control?) would force the back-mounted opponent to actually have to escape to a neutral position, thus opening up more submission opportunities in the process. Imagine what this would look like: an opponent in OT turns from back to full mount; he knows the clock is ticking so he frantically bucks and rolls and pushes on the knee; then BAM, mounted triangle and he taps.

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If you thought letting people start on the back lead to stalling, then im not really sure why you think mount will be better. Riding the mount is way easier than the back mount. Also, the truck is a back mount variation. How is it the same as mount or side control?

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Originally Posted by sean applegate

If you thought letting people start on the back lead to stalling, then im not really sure why you think mount will be better. Riding the mount is way easier than the back mount. Also, the truck is a back mount variation. How is it the same as mount or side control?

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Just to be clear, I don't think people should start in mount. I just think the OT round should continue if the match goes into mount. My reasons are that the mount directly chains with back mount and spiderweb, just like back/truck and back/crucifix chain together. I also think it's cheap to count an "escape" as simply rolling over from one bad position to another, and that forcing the opponent to actually escape to a semi-neutral spot would make for a more dynamic OT round with more submissions.

Seems like a good place to ask...

I've been wondering does the crucifix count? I guess most people would consider it a back mount variation but you don't really have the hook like you do with the back/truck/spiderweb.

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Originally Posted by Princess Guillotine

Just to be clear, I don't think people should start in mount. I just think the OT round should continue if the match goes into mount. My reasons are that the mount directly chains with back mount and spiderweb, just like back/truck and back/crucifix chain together. I also think it's cheap to count an "escape" as simply rolling over from one bad position to another, and that forcing the opponent to actually escape to a semi-neutral spot would make for a more dynamic OT round with more submissions.

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EBI has done what no other show has i've seen other tournaments try and tinker with the overtime rounds and its no bueno i assure you

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Originally Posted by Jon-Michael Holland

EBI has done what no other show has i've seen other tournaments try and tinker with the overtime rounds and its no bueno i assure you

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what tinkering have you seen other tournaments do with the EBI overtime rules?

adding the mount

Dialogue is never a bad thing. That being said, the truck adds a new dimension to the back game that the mount doesn't have. Sure, someone could recover quarter guard in mount and a sophisticated truck player could convert that into a successful truck, but as I said, it's a bit more sophisticated than back mount to truck. You can still set up arm triangles from the back like in the mount. I mean personally, I'd be down to see mount added to OT's with the gi, in order to see cross chokes and stuff. I'm 90% sure Eddie would agree to that. But let's keep it on the maybe pile.

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Originally Posted by Sean Gamble

Seems like a good place to ask...

I've been wondering does the crucifix count? I guess most people would consider it a back mount variation but you don't really have the hook like you do with the back/truck/spiderweb.

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Yes, crucifix is still back control

Ask an ibjjf official why you get 4 points going from mount to back but get zero points going from back to mount. Sure the mount is a good place to be but so is side control and full guard, it's mainly a time issue, hella long OT rounds could kill the show

Thanks for clarifying! :D

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Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

Ask an ibjjf official why you get 4 points going from mount to back but get zero points going from back to mount. Sure the mount is a good place to be but so is side control and full guard, it's mainly a time issue, hella long OT rounds could kill the show

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That's sort-of the point I was making: Back to mount is an extension of the same bad position, so you shouldn't get an escape for it, just like you don't get an escape from back-with-hooks to back-with-one-hook even though it reduces the threat of the choke (and prolongs the OT round).

Either way, thanks Eddie for being so responsive to these ideas. I'm a big fan of EBI, and I'm sure I'm not alone in the feeling that it's in large part because your event seems like the people's BJJ event.

Lets have it this way to clear things up. Take any position you like (full mount, back, truck, spider web, side control, north south etc,) but if the defender of any of these positions escapes that particular position, then its game over. Does that satisfy?

Lets have it this way to clear things up. Take any position you like (full mount, back, truck, spider web, side control, north south etc,) but if the defender of any of these positions escapes that particular position, then its game over. Does that satisfy?

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Originally Posted by Ladi The African Tiger

Lets have it this way to clear things up. Take any position you like (full mount, back, truck, spider web, side control, north south etc,) but if the defender of any of these positions escapes that particular position, then its game over. Does that satisfy?

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No. I just think the OT round should continue if the person rolls over from back to full mount. That is not an escape, in my opinion.

Take it from someone who is very defensive and has been for 13years. Getting you off my back by letting you go to mount is totally an escape. Especially in nogi! Eddie took the two most aggressive attacking positions to set up an exciting overtime. If you let them go to mount or sidecontrol with the high level of competition it would just drag things out way too long. There is a very good reason why EBI is now the bench mark.