Heelhook

I have not been truly heel hooked before to the point where I felt pain or anything, however couple days ago I was rolling with a buddy of mine and he put a heel hook on me, it was not too tight, I had room to play and although he tried to crank it i managed to get out and felt absolutely nothing. However the inside of that same knee was pretty sore for 2 days and paint went away after those days.
So you know how Joe Rogan always says if a heel hook is hurting you, it is already too late and something is ripped. Obviously my knee is not damaged but still it getting sore after an attempt which I felt nothing about is kinda interesting.

dude!! TAP YOU CRAZY GUY!

you dont feel them somtimes its the reason why there so dangerous! if your ACL tears your fucking DONE SON!
i swear to god man. trust me

if the guy is completely on his side and cranking that shit than he got you
if hes flat on his back and turning than you can still have a chance of escaping by TURNING WITH IT/ pulling your leg out

honestly dont even bother looking up escapes on youtube
just tap.if you want to train to see your blue belt stop messing around like that

ok time out
i think i was thinking of somthing else

never mind about the being flat on your back thing
i was thinking of a straight ankle lock

he CAN finish it from there
so just tap

so sorry to temperary miss lead you

i-a-m-a-d-u-m-b-a-s-s

:-D

Go to a doctor.

thats why heel hooks are dangerous, they don't really hurt until damage is done, even then it may still not hurt but your knee still gets jacked. its a move to tap early to, also as the aggressor its a move to not crank 100% on, 100% on a choke leads to a nap, 100% on a heel hook leads to knee reconstruction. Make sure both parties know that before you roll, treat it as a position, once you establish it, move on to something else, you don't always need to get a tap.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Gibbs

thats why heel hooks are dangerous, they don't really hurt until damage is done, even then it may still not hurt but your knee still gets jacked. its a move to tap early to, also as the aggressor its a move to not crank 100% on, 100% on a choke leads to a nap, 100% on a heel hook leads to knee reconstruction. Make sure both parties know that before you roll, treat it as a position, once you establish it, move on to something else, you don't always need to get a tap.

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+1

And though it's off topic a bit I'll add that the same is true of elbow and knee compressions; though perhaps not to quite as great an extent.

thats crazy, i never been put in a heel hook, i have a pretty high tap tolerence, so my opponent has to really work on a armbar, cranks etc. Now that i know you dont feel anything at first ill keep that in mind! THANKS

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Originally Posted by stopNgo1000

thats crazy, i never been put in a heel hook, i have a pretty high tap tolerence, so my opponent has to really work on a armbar, cranks etc. Now that i know you dont feel anything at first ill keep that in mind! THANKS

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Tap tolerance has nothing to do with it. If it's just training, the submission is on, and you are not executing a rational defense, counter, or escape.. just tap. It's not a game of bloody knuckles, it's just training.

Additionally, in training.. both parties should be considerate of the safety and welfare of their training partner. If you and I were training and you mentally decided that you were never going to tap out, I still wouldn't injure you. The tension point for most submissions are very tactile and apparent, once the position is established and the submission set, I have no personal need to go further beyond that. Anybody who does is either naive or a sociopath.

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Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

Tap tolerance has nothing to do with it. If it's just training, the submission is on, and you are not executing a rational defense, counter, or escape.. just tap. It's not a game of bloody knuckles, it's just training.

Additionally, in training.. both parties should be considerate of the safety and welfare of their training partner. If you and I were training and you mentally decided that you were never going to tap out, I still wouldn't injure you. The tension point for most submissions are very tactile and apparent, once the position is established and the submission set, I have no personal need to go further beyond that. Anybody who does is either naive or a sociopath.

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I understand, there are some who look for a tap. I actually release the submission once i know its locked in, i don't like to play with that give and pull of injury

Heelhooks are SCARRRY SHITE!
People always roll out of mine in training because I put them on so gingerly but they're something of a go-to for me so I'm pretty good at getting them. I let it go without too much fuss but I always think in the back of my mind like "dude your shit would've been toast right there"...crazy peoples.

I got heal hook and it didn't effect me to the next day and I was out for 6 weeks. If you are training on a daily basics you have to tap early or start learning and practicing a good defense. Training and competion is to different things, if you want to continue training smart tap early it's all ego.

Dude, cross your legs before he locks in the leg lock...then all you have to worry about is defending minor toe holds and the clover leaf and the Brabo Choke and some crazy arm bars and............but yeah...that guy's a douche for cranking on a heel hook and you should definitely be tapping sooner if someone's even threatened the heel hook or the reverse heel hook for that matter. You are involved in some unsafe rolling if you ask me and you should prolly start training in a gym where they encourage safer grappling or you aren't going to be grappling much longer.

I just wanted to know if it is possible to do damage during a heelhook although the recipient is feeling absolutely nothing and from the posts above I guess the answer to that question is yes.

Sorry bro, we get a little mean sometimes on these forums. It's mostly because we get sick of silly questions like this, but don't worry. We don't hate you. We just hate your strangely naive question about heel hooks.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

Sorry bro, we get a little mean sometimes on these forums. It's mostly because we get sick of silly questions like this, but don't worry. We don't hate you. We just hate your strangely naive question about heel hooks.

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not sure about the hate, I had the same questions when I started. Pretty sure we aren't about hating beginners. Just a little overzealous in our internet teaching methods.

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Originally Posted by Jon Watkins

Sorry bro, we get a little mean sometimes on these forums. It's mostly because we get sick of silly questions like this, but don't worry. We don't hate you. We just hate your strangely naive question about heel hooks.

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?

Why is the question silly or naive? You were born with heelhook damage possibility knowledge? A submission that does damage without any pain is automatically supposed to make sense?
Hate me? I don't see any personal attacks or anything, everybody has been pretty cool so far also nobody is being mean. Tnx for the input i do appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Gibbs

not sure about the hate, I had the same questions when I started. Pretty sure we aren't about hating beginners. Just a little overzealous in our internet teaching methods.

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+1

No hate and their are NO silly questions. Heel hook subs are limited to 'catch and release' at my Academy for ALL of the reason discussed herein. Elbows, shoulders, necks and elbows can get relief or rest even if accidentally injured... Knees, however, NEVER get rest in that they bear your weight on a daily basis. Most folks cant bed rest a knee injury. Hell, even as a full-time coach I am leary, maybe moreso because I cannot afford an injury as I teach 7 days a week. Caution and trust are the factors. I dont believe you can cut application OR defense out of your game, but as someone else stated earlier if I catch you, I'll let it go once I know its sunk... I'll not wait for you to realize the truth. THAT is silly. ;)

It's like clockwork on here for people to oppose my point of view. Everyone's so defensive. Alright, let me ask you this question...where did you learn the heel hook? Was it on the internet? If it was, I'm pretty sure every instructional I've ever seen on the heel hook says...be careful with this submission. Don't torque on the heel in practice. This submission is very DANGEROUS!!

@Neale Hoerle: Really? No hate? Other than Sherdog and MYSPACE 3 years ago, I'd say this is THE cesspool of all the hatred I encounter in my day's journey. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy alot of the posts on documentaries, instructionals, and Ian Quinto's playful humor. And maybe I'm construing this wrong and the hate's not always necessarily directed at me, but on this forum, I've heard some major hate being dropped on Ryan Hall, Wrestlers, Catch Wrestlers, people with egos, Steven Segal, Brazillians, Aikido, the Gi, etc.

On the old site, I remember quoting the Axiom, "Defense, Position, then Submission" and some random blue belt pointed at this quote with an lol. So please excuse me if this is just playful banter, but I like to believe that somewhere in jokes lies a hint of sincerity. And forgive me if I'm a little jaded about it, but I think people are forgetting that 10th Planet is supposed to be about having an open mind and accepting what works. You know Catch Wrestling works. Sakuraba proved that. So has Josh Barnett, Karl Gotch, Mark Shultz, etc. Wrestling works. Everyone has an ego and it's healthy to have one unless you're hurting yourself or someone else with it. Ryan Hall is a great grappler with some controversial opinions just like Eddie Bravo. Aikido can work if you're really good at it. Morihei Ueshiba was a badass and I think people should respect him. The Gi has given me new ideas on what to try nogi. Helio Gracie was Brazillian!! And I could go on and on in this tangent all day all night. The point I'm trying to make is that there is hate on this forum and there's no denying it. I'm not saying it should be hardcore moderated, I'm just saying people should be aware of it's existence and play around accordingly or don't. I don't care. But I am going to chime in with my 2 cents as long as I'm a paying member man. And I say all this with love in my heart. Who wants a hug?

Jon,

Let me re-word what I said... No hate from ME! I, personally, am about growth and having an open mind. Haters need not apply and I can guarantee you that ANY of my fellow 10TH Planet Moon Instructors have the EXACT same mentality as I do. We are all very open and very receptive. I'm am not a 'Forum Rat' by any stretch of the imagination and I avoid all negativity so I am not versed on the 'hating' that may occur. I personally would like to extend my apologies for what ever may or may not have happened to you on this forum. Just sayin. If anyone needs help or has questions about the system or otherwise I long ago extended my invite to share knowledge... Hit me on email, Twitter, FB or DM here. My aim is to help ;)

That's awesome man and thanks. I'll add you on facebook and maybe I'll check out Morgantown if I'm ever road trippin'. My family actually has roots in West Virginia.

;) anytime Jon... For the record, I hate that there are haters. Narrowmindedness fuckin blows... I believe there is no good without evil and I dont believe I wouldn't be successful today without those who doubted me... I strive on hate and doubt, it can define you. I will agree, however, that it's a real kick in the bag to think you'll be warmly recepted here on the forum (when you have a general question or concern) and then to get laughed at. Fuck that.

Sooo, HATERS... STOP HATIN'

I think compared to a lot of forums (the underground comes to mind...) there is a lot less hate than one might expect for such a diverse group. We have people who train only out of their garages, to those who attend and instruct at Moons, all the way up the the guy who actually INVENTED the system on here. You get that diverse a group together on a forum and of course there's going to be some head-butting. Hell, Mallory and I have gone at it on a couple of topics but I don't hate on the guy. He's clearly one hell of a grappler and I'm on a grappling forum. I've learned things about grappling from him and I'll defer to his greater expertise on that topic and challenge him on the subjects in which I am at least a brown belt. :) At the end of the day, I feel like there is substantially less hate around here than I've seen just about anywhere else on the interwebs.

Agreed Jason... That's was initially what I meant when I said 'No Hate' ;) We are, with a few exceptions, all openminded and diverse. That's what 10TH Planet is all about

Jon, Just an observation on my part, we've had a group of troll(s) on here (I know us mods try to keep a handle on it, but we don't see everything), and generally the hate that is on the forum here comes from guys that don't actually train at HQ or a moon, so they aren't getting smacked in the back of the head by their instructor if they do come off that way, just food for thought. I always appreciate your input, intelligent questions and banter, most of us come from diffrent backgrounds so obviously we will differ in opinion from time to time.

Maybe hate from white belt so and so but not from Eddie or any moon instructors that I have seen. Follow their example not the hater.

It's cool guys. I'm just trying to trick some people into changing their minds about stuff or considering different perspectives. I just put heavy emotion into it because I've been all about being real and sincere and enthusiastic lately. It makes me feel good that yall care tho. Thanks. :D