Eddie Bravo "stealing" moves

It seems like every time someone wants to complain about 10P, this arguement comes up: that Eddie is not a great innovator, but that he steals techniques from other systems and renames them for 10P purposes.

What is NEVER mentioned in these in these discussions is the reverse ude-garami.

For those who aren't familiar with the reverse ude-garami, it was used by Masahiko Kimura, a Japanese judoka, in his match with Helio Gracie. He used the technique to break Gracie's arm and win the match.

The Gracies liked the technique so much that they incorporated it into their system, calling it the 'kimura' after the man they learned it from.

That being said, why do so many practitioners of Gracie JJ flame on 10P for the very thing their grandmaster did? :confused:

Food for thought.

Totally agree! Most people I have trained with think it was totally created by the Gracie's and is Brazilian.... With out the Japanese there would not have been Jiu Jitsu .

Dylan, no offense to you, but if I hear this one more time.. I mean its always a thread like this and practically verbatum. "The Gracie's took it from Judo, so why do they give Eddie shit?" Literally dozens of threads.

Your walkin into a class full of dudes that major in 10p and jj in general and tellin us what 2+2 equals.

Some guys get it and some hate. Just be happy you get it.

No one here takes the guys that claim Eddie is stealing moves seriously. It preaching to the choir.

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Originally Posted by Dylan Ehrnreiter

It seems like every time someone wants to complain about 10P, this arguement comes up: that Eddie is not a great innovator, but that he steals techniques from other systems and renames them for 10P purposes.

What is NEVER mentioned in these in these discussions is the reverse ude-garami.

For those who aren't familiar with the reverse ude-garami, it was used by Masahiko Kimura, a Japanese judoka, in his match with Helio Gracie. He used the technique to break Gracie's arm and win the match.

The Gracies liked the technique so much that they incorporated it into their system, calling it the 'kimura' after the man they learned it from.

That being said, why do so many practitioners of Gracie JJ flame on 10P for the very thing their grandmaster did? :confused:

Food for thought.

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And the 'Ude-Garami' was the Double Wrist Lock from Catch Wrestling which was incorporated into Judo.

I think its because Eddie is an american that beat Royler honestly. He defeated an accomplished Brazillian Jiu Jitsu hero and it helped him make a name for himself. So I think a lot of hardcore Gracie guys have a grudge against him. I think other people see his advocacy for marijuana (which is no big deal, people make that the point of so much conversation and they shouldn't) and they say "omg drugs are bad, he is a bad role model..." I also think there are a lot of people out there who respect him but we only see the negative. Here is an example; when was the last time you were driving and got home and said "Hey that guy in front of me was such a good driver that was nice", proly never, but i bet you have come and said this "ASS clown cut me off today and i almost flying twistered that bitch!" See what i mean at any rate the only thing you can do is prove our system to the haters on the mat. This is my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Dylan, no offense to you, but if I hear this one more time.. I mean its always a thread like this and practically verbatum. "The Gracie's took it from Judo, so why do they give Eddie shit?" Literally dozens of threads.

Your walkin into a class full of dudes that major in 10p and jj in general and tellin us what 2+2 equals.

Some guys get it and some hate. Just be happy you get it.

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Didn't know this had been done to death. Hadn't seen it on here before. My bad. :(

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

No one here takes the guys that claim Eddie is stealing moves seriously. It preaching to the choir.

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I was just calling out the Kimura part. I know nobody on here thinks Eddie steals.

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

And the 'Ude-Garami' was the Double Wrist Lock from Catch Wrestling which was incorporated into Judo.

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(insert Inception joke)

Here's how Eddie is innovator! He took a wrestling move(guillotine) and made it his own. Eddie made many variations to the twister its not the same old wrestling move just renamed! If you believe it is then be ignorant! Rubber Guard is claimed to been done by Nino first. I still have not seen any evidence!!! But here's how Eddie is a innovator. Eddie has made a WHOLE SYSTEM of the rubber guard!!! Who else can claim this??? No one....end story...its Eddie Bravo's Rubber Guard!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jason Mallory

And the 'Ude-Garami' was the Double Wrist Lock from Catch Wrestling which was incorporated into Judo.

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Jason I'd challenge that one. I know Kano did incorperate some of wrestling's take downs (like the drop fireman's carry)However, Ude-Garami was in a number of traditional/classical Japanese Jujutsu systems (Tejin shin'yo ryu and Diato Ryu for sure)for hundreds of years prior to Judo's creation in 1882. It was primarliy used as a standing hold, to be used as a lever for disarming and throwing. As I haven't practiced Japanese Jujutsu in a number of years, the name of the hold/throw escapes me. I'm sure if Ari sees this thread he could add to it. I know its not shiho-nage but some what similar.

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Originally Posted by Dylan Ehrnreiter

I was just calling out the Kimura part. I know nobody on here thinks Eddie steals.

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Without all of Judo, there would be no BJJ. Mitsyu Meada (Count Koma)the man that tought the Gracies was a Judo practicer.

Eddie Bravo stole my virginity;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsE0U...eature=related

A omo is an omo, a triangle is a triangle. I look at it as Eddie has given names to the paths more than anything else and that's what I love about the system. No other system has step by step names as descriptive. So people see us say "do the douchebag!!" the uninformed just say "that's a no arm triangle wtf is that renaming shit..." People see us calling out jiuclaw so they think we are renaming an omo... Rather than calling out a path to an omo finish, or a more descriptive term than yelling out "NO ARM TRIANGLE!!" Its ignorance on their side not ours.

Because that block of letters jumped around so much, enjoy the funny man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Cw-Ddf1ro&feature=related

partche time royler. is better than full time edjie bravo.

No arm triangle with tha fist is the gagreflex and the douschebag is finishing in spiderweb by pushin on his face with your foot. jussayin

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Jason I'd challenge that one. I know Kano did incorperate some of wrestling's take downs (like the drop fireman's carry)However, Ude-Garami was in a number of traditional/classical Japanese Jujutsu systems (Tejin shin'yo ryu and Diato Ryu for sure)for hundreds of years prior to Judo's creation in 1882. It was primarliy used as a standing hold, to be used as a lever for disarming and throwing. As I haven't practiced Japanese Jujutsu in a number of years, the name of the hold/throw escapes me. I'm sure if Ari sees this thread he could add to it. I know its not shiho-nage but some what similar.

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This is a hot topic in the Catch Wrestling community. There are advocates for both sides of the argument, but I believe that Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch both say that Catch wrestlers introduced the DBL Wristlock to Judo (of course they would say that though lol). It's too hard to say either way, but Judo and Catch traded many different moves back in the day. They used to battle it out a lot. For example, The arm triangle used to be called the Judo choke in Catch Wrestling. I want to say, but don't take my word for it, that Ude-Garami is the Americana (or top wristlock in catch) and the reverse Ude-Garami is the Kimura. That leads some to speculate that Judo knew of the Americana first then later added the Kimura.

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Originally Posted by J Grooms

This is a hot topic in the Catch Wrestling community. There are advocates for both sides of the argument, but I believe that Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch both say that Catch wrestlers introduced the DBL Wristlock to Judo (of course they would say that though lol). It's too hard to say either way, but Judo and Catch traded many different moves back in the day. They used to battle it out a lot. For example, The arm triangle used to be called the Judo choke in Catch Wrestling. I want to say, but don't take my word for it, that Ude-Garami is the Americana (or top wristlock in catch) and the reverse Ude-Garami is the Kimura. That leads some to speculate that Judo knew of the Americana first then later added the Kimura.

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Ude-Garami is the Americana, Kuzure Ude Garami is a term used to describe the Kimura and a large number of other "key lock"esqe type of submissions. "Kuzure" just means variation. Nether leads to specualtion that it was later added to Judo, one doesn't lead to the other. The term Kurzure is used to list a number of variants of techniques, as a classification, not that it was later added. The Japanese did not use discrpitions to name transitions, only the actual technique. As I said before Kano was a Jujutsu expert prior to creating Judo. There are several variations of keylocks, hammer locks, etc. in the traditional Japanese Jujutsu systems (Which there are hundreds of), well prior to any influnce or exposure that Catch had on Judo.

Renato disagrees.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

No arm triangle with tha fist is the gagreflex and the douschebag is finishing in spiderweb by pushin on his face with your foot. jussayin

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HAH!

Orange juice raped my father.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

Ude-Garami is the Americana, Kuzure Ude Garami is a term used to describe the Kimura and a large number of other "key lock"esqe type of submissions. "Kuzure" just means variation. Nether leads to specualtion that it was later added to Judo, one doesn't lead to the other. The term Kurzure is used to list a number of variants of techniques, as a classification, not that it was later added. The Japanese did not use discrpitions to name transitions, only the actual technique. As I said before Kano was a Jujutsu expert prior to creating Judo. There are several variations of keylocks, hammer locks, etc. in the traditional Japanese Jujutsu systems (Which there are hundreds of), well prior to any influnce or exposure that Catch had on Judo.

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im sure pankration was the first fighting system to use the kimura.

and this is clearly a set up for the darce

http://www.sikyon.com/sicyon/images/pankration.jpg

lol awesome

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

No arm triangle with tha fist is the gagreflex and the douschebag is finishing in spiderweb by pushin on his face with your foot. jussayin

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I had called it the "douche bag" bag because of this thread, the guy that does it called it that, but its good to get the correction!

http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...ghlight=douche

yo i invented everything and i'm getting a patent on all jiujitsu moves & i'm charging everybody to use my shit lol

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Originally Posted by Tyler Timmermans

im sure pankration was the first fighting system to use the kimura.

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Clearly you weren't reading what I wrote. I never said Judo was the first system to use a "ude-garami" I said it was there far before its introduction to Catch.

I invented passing the guard :)

I invented the "Angry Dragon".

Also, munting.

hell ya. this has just turned into a grappling history thread. I love it.