Leg lock question I received in a private message.

Question about training with leg locks

I saw you posted a very knowledgeable thread on leg locks. I don't know who else
to ask on here, but I catch a lot of people in heel hooks or ankle locks but they do
not tap. This is MMA sparring because when I grapple most people do because they
know that the pain theshold for tapping to such a thing is close to the breaking point.
my point is though how can I put people in heel hooks and not break their knees and
still get them to tap? I've been working on passing the guard from the 50/50 but I rather
finish the fight sometimes, but just without hurting my training partners! if you could
recommend me to anyone else on here who could help too that'd be great also.

Thanks

Hello there and a vert good question.

One thing you can do is apply slow even pressure until they tap.
Don't surge and go fast in practice with your training partners. (In competition
you can don't have to worry about hurting people so go all out there. However we shouldn't be going around crippling people either even in compeition. (MMA of course is a little different cause the other guy is trying to destroy you. Gee, in MMA I would not hold back leg locks at all. Sorry but the other guy is trying to kill you and you have to take the guy out.)(In a grappling tournament use your own judgement.)

Any way you
could say to your training partners something like "Hey I don't want to break your leg so tap, for Christ's sake!" "I have you!" Also catch and release knowing that you had it. These people should be tapping any way. It's just training. Talk to them and the instructors about this. Tell them this story too. I took a seminar with Jeff Munson who is of course an ADCC champion many times and won many top grappling championships. He also has done well in MMA. Top wrestler etc. etc. He told us he has tapped out 100's of times to leglocks. Now if Jeff Munson tapped out 100's of times to leglocks what are these guys you're trainning with not tapping out for? Think about it. As they say getting good at grappling/MMA is not just about tapping people out but about tapping out yourself.

Additionally get a grappling dummy so you can really crank those leg locks without hurting anybody.

Have you ever practicing "leg wars" with a partner?

Let me know what you think of all this.

(I need the ability to edit. How do I get that ability?)

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Originally Posted by 10th Planet Riverside, Ca

(I need the ability to edit. How do I get that ability?)

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Pro members can edit. Beyond that, beats me.

Yeah if you have a pro membership you can edit. Down where it says "reply, reply with quote" it'll say "edit post"
What's a leg war?

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

Yeah if you have a pro membership you can edit. Down where it says "reply, reply with quote" it'll say "edit post"
What's a leg war?

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Leg wars are where you start in say 50-50 and see who wins. Or you start in straight leg lock position, and one person will escape while the other tries to submit you... Etc., etc. good fun

That's kinda what I figured. Sounds fun! It'll get you good quick

Leg wars are a hit with the ladies lol

Brent, very true brotha. Mr. Grooms! Too funny!!

I don't know.. if we're training I'm not going to blow out your knee. Even if you mentally decided that you weren't going to tap, I would never just torque through a heel hook just because you were being stubborn. I just don't see the point in it. When you perform a heel hook you can feel the tension increase, you know where the limit is, why go past that just because your training partner or friend was being stupid?

When you grip up for a heel hook you can actually dig the blade of your wrist into the achilles in order to generate pain. Many people are paranoid of feeling pain while being heel hooked, so by creating any pain you can sometimes get people to tap, out of paranoia and concern for their knee.

By the way, this philosophy extends to any submission I perform in training. Sometimes injury is inevitable and sometimes when your partners defense increases, the speed of your submission has no choice but to increase in speed and intensity.. it happens. But if you are in full control of the position, and the technique and you can feel that tension point on the submission, why go further? I mean, I have literally tapped out for other people telling them that shit was just getting gross and that I'm not going to find out how far their arm can bend backwards.

If i can hold the sub long enough to tell you what im gonna do to next increase the tension and that im only goin about 40% right now, that should count as a tap.

I have had to pop several ankles to make my training partners respect toe holds though. Almost nobody wanted to tap during free roll. I was lettin go then tellin them I could have turned there foot around. They truly didnt believe me, so I went till the first crunch on like 4 guys at our gym. Seems like everybody has to be stubborn and learn for themselves. I would rather me do it a little and them learn to respect it and tap, then someone mangle them in comp.

10th PlanetRiverside, whats your name man?

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

If i can hold the sub long enough to tell you what im gonna do to next increase the tension and that im only goin about 40% right now, that should count as a tap.

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So basically, what you're saying is...

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...5662182120.jpg

If you need to crank a heel hook to get the tap, you're not doing it right.

Your training partners not tapping boils down to a few things:

1) Stubbornness/Ego: you can't control how retarded your training partners are, they're responsible for their own actions. If their ego dictates their actions, they will get hurt or injured at some point or another regardless whether it by you or someone else.

2)Technical Ignorance: All you can do is make a solid attempt to educate your training partners, it's their choice what to do with that information. They can learn from it, or refer back to number 1.

3)Technical Error: If your cranking on a heel hook to get the finish, you’re don't something incorrect. You have to secure a solid position of control, the large majority of leg locks I see in high level competition (Failed attempts and successes) they are lacking in their positions of control. You see the "cranking" habit due to that lack of control and poor technical execution of those controls. It’s like any other submission with poor positioning; you apply more force to make up for lack of skill. Master the positions of control and your finishing options will increase, if one submission doesn’t work you’ll have plenty of time to transitions to others from the same position of control to find one that won’t injure you’re partner.