Catching both legs with guard: random catch? Or something to build up?

Hey folks,

I've held myself back from asking this question for weeks for reasons that hopefully will be clear if you can read through my TLDR style of writing.

I'm catching a fairly punishing position on skilled opponents now that I only used to get on noobs. I'm trying to figure out whether this is a set up that I can develop, even attempt to understand systematically.

Yet, I am conscious that there are lots of weird positions that are quirks of an individual's style or just random catches that aren't really predictable and aren't worth understanding better.

I am hoping to get some advice as to which this is.

In case it helps, I have stubby little troll legs. I'm not catching this because I have dancer's legs. And if you do, I curse you. ;)

The Posish

I'm finding that I can often triangle my legs around my opponents legs while I am playing guard. At first, I got it from putting pressure down on the hips with my guard to keep the hips beat. Noobs would sometimes have this horrible idea: "Maybe I can squeeze through there like toothpaste from a tube." Nope. You're getting swept to mount or your back taken.

But now I'm finding that I'm catching it as people begin a guard pass. I'm kind of catching it all over the place and I'm trying to pay attention to where I am getting the position so that I can get the set up consciously.

If I can catch the thighs, it's an additional problem for you to worry about. Some people can find a moment and power their legs open. If they don't, I can make the problem worse. If I can catch the knees, it's bad. Good chance of a sweep or back take. If I can snag a lockdown one on one or both legs, it's real bad. This will probably end well for me.

I *think* I catch it the most when people try that most classic of guard passes: put a knee on the spine, pressure down on the hips, other leg off at an angle, elbow into the knee....etc. If I can catch them with their knees close together at step 1...

Any thoughts as to whether this is something that other people have had some success with? Or is it just something that comes up when opponents make technical mistakes, mistakes that are very unlikely to happen at higher levels?


~JJ

If I understand the position correctly, it's similar to something I've seen some people use in GI Grappling as an open guard sweep. I've also seen it as a counter to a sloppy no hands half guard pass no gi. You trap the pressing leg in there as well and then you have basically a double quarter guard, I've done that. I've never seen someone make a whole game out of it, but there is probably something there if you want to spend time on it. I think it has potential :) Hope this helps.

I am trying to imagine what you could possibly do from this position you are describing and I might be thinking of it in a way you are not describing, so do not fret if I make no sense :). I can honestly only picture this method working the way you described if your opponent is trying to escape 'like toothpaste from a tube' because they would be compromising their balance when they rise up to try to slip out of your legs in order to attempt a escape/pass. Other than that I think I would try to maintain as good of posture as I possibly can so I can just sit and wait it out. I would want to anticipate any guard opening movements while keeping my posture and go when you either release to go to something else or when you open guard to attempt a sweep, armbar, etc. Unless there is something I am not picturing correctly, I believe you would have to open up to attack (such as going for armbars, transitioning to a butterfly sweep, lockdown, etc.) and if so, I would simply stay relaxed with my legs wrapped up and keep everything proper until that moment comes. I honestly think the hardest one to deal with would be a lockdown from here, but if I win the grip/clinch battle, I can instantly buttocks compressor if I am more focused on keeping the control of the situation and moving when you do rather than trying to sneaking a leg or two out before or during your transitioning. The reason I would use the buttock compressor as a go-to in this situation is because I could get some form of control by locking down your hips before you decide to bump into me if you happen to catch both legs in a grapevine or something. Going from guard to half-guard (unless I am losing the clinch battle) you're most likely going to have to pummel into double underhooks during the transition to lockdown or even after the lockdown is in play which gives me a chance to negate the underhooks before it is an issue.

Unless you have great grips on me, I should be able to keep posture relatively easy due to the fact your legs are focused on my lower body. The higher the legs, the more posture control you have because more of your weight can be applied to keeping their posture controlled when you start attacking.

Once again, I would like to say I may be picturing this wrong in my head, but this is what I believe from my visualization.

I honestly can't imagine any game from this set-up unless your opponent tries to move first, which they will most likely know better not to do that at a higher level. I just can't imagine hitting anything from this position if my opponent were to do everything correctly posture/position wise, not trying to pass off-balance when you can easily sweep them, unless you open up and abandon your opponents legs. Even so, your legs at the time are not contributing to keeping their upper body's posture in a more favorable position to attack in the first place which means if this gets shut down, there is not a lot of attacks or favorable outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Carson J Lodge

I am trying to imagine what you could possibly do from this position you are describing and I might be thinking of it in a way you are not describing, so do not fret if I make no sense :). I can honestly only picture this method working the way you described if your opponent is trying to escape 'like toothpaste from a tube' because they would be compromising their balance when they rise up to try to slip out of your legs in order to attempt a escape/pass. Other than that I think I would try to maintain as good of posture as I possibly can so I can just sit and wait it out. I would want to anticipate any guard opening movements while keeping my posture and go when you either release to go to something else or when you open guard to attempt a sweep, armbar, etc. Unless there is something I am not picturing correctly, I believe you would have to open up to attack (such as going for armbars, transitioning to a butterfly sweep, lockdown, etc.) and if so, I would simply stay relaxed with my legs wrapped up and keep everything proper until that moment comes. I honestly think the hardest one to deal with would be a lockdown from here, but if I win the grip/clinch battle, I can instantly buttocks compressor if I am more focused on keeping the control of the situation and moving when you do rather than trying to sneaking a leg or two out before or during your transitioning. The reason I would use the buttock compressor as a go-to in this situation is because I could get some form of control by locking down your hips before you decide to bump into me if you happen to catch both legs in a grapevine or something. Going from guard to half-guard (unless I am losing the clinch battle) you're most likely going to have to pummel into double underhooks during the transition to lockdown or even after the lockdown is in play which gives me a chance to negate the underhooks before it is an issue.

Unless you have great grips on me, I should be able to keep posture relatively easy due to the fact your legs are focused on my lower body. The higher the legs, the more posture control you have because more of your weight can be applied to keeping their posture controlled when you start attacking.

Once again, I would like to say I may be picturing this wrong in my head, but this is what I believe from my visualization.

I honestly can't imagine any game from this set-up unless your opponent tries to move first, which they will most likely know better not to do that at a higher level. I just can't imagine hitting anything from this position if my opponent were to do everything correctly posture/position wise, not trying to pass off-balance when you can easily sweep them, unless you open up and abandon your opponents legs. Even so, your legs at the time are not contributing to keeping their upper body's posture in a more favorable position to attack in the first place which means if this gets shut down, there is not a lot of attacks or favorable outcomes.

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If you have both of their ankles trapped AND both of there knees are on the same side, you have game for sure. There is a super easy sweep where you scoop your hips underneath them and some options off that as well. High level guys use it some if its what I think it is, its just the multitude of setups that allow you to use a guard regularly that is missing. If he can find that, he might have something :) I call the position double quarter guard and I've taught it and some entrys in my classes as early as 4 or so years go. The fist person I saw formally teach it was Jeff Glover when I was his dummy while he was teaching private lessons. You MUST have both their knees on the same side though. That is unless you've developed trouble shoots for that that I don't know about yet.

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

Hey folks,

I've held myself back from asking this question for weeks for reasons that hopefully will be clear if you can read through my TLDR style of writing.

I'm catching a fairly punishing position on skilled opponents now that I only used to get on noobs. I'm trying to figure out whether this is a set up that I can develop, even attempt to understand systematically.

Yet, I am conscious that there are lots of weird positions that are quirks of an individual's style or just random catches that aren't really predictable and aren't worth understanding better.

I am hoping to get some advice as to which this is.

In case it helps, I have stubby little troll legs. I'm not catching this because I have dancer's legs. And if you do, I curse you. ;)

The Posish

I'm finding that I can often triangle my legs around my opponents legs while I am playing guard. At first, I got it from putting pressure down on the hips with my guard to keep the hips beat. Noobs would sometimes have this horrible idea: "Maybe I can squeeze through there like toothpaste from a tube." Nope. You're getting swept to mount or your back taken.

But now I'm finding that I'm catching it as people begin a guard pass. I'm kind of catching it all over the place and I'm trying to pay attention to where I am getting the position so that I can get the set up consciously.

If I can catch the thighs, it's an additional problem for you to worry about. Some people can find a moment and power their legs open. If they don't, I can make the problem worse. If I can catch the knees, it's bad. Good chance of a sweep or back take. If I can snag a lockdown one on one or both legs, it's real bad. This will probably end well for me.

I *think* I catch it the most when people try that most classic of guard passes: put a knee on the spine, pressure down on the hips, other leg off at an angle, elbow into the knee....etc. If I can catch them with their knees close together at step 1...

Any thoughts as to whether this is something that other people have had some success with? Or is it just something that comes up when opponents make technical mistakes, mistakes that are very unlikely to happen at higher levels?


~JJ

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The black belt I've been training with lately (Marcelo Monteiro) likes to do something along these lines. Gi and no gi. If I stand up to open his guard, before I create enough leverage to pry his legs open, he'll open his guard willingly causing his legs to go from around my hip/lower back (as is customary in closed guard) to fall down towards my thigh/knee region, at which point he'll close his guard back up. He's even gone down to the ankles, and it's made little difference if any. At this point, he'll usually sit up and hug my legs. To counter at this point, the only thing I could think of was to throw my hands out on the mat and try to, as you say, 'squeeze out like toothpaste', but then I feel my back getting taken so I immediately bail top position and give him the sweep instead of my back, hoping to at least salvage some sort of guard or to go for a submission in transition. The lesson for defending is to not have my legs too close together and be ready to kill one of his legs and advance to his half-guard as soon as physically possible. Or, go for footlocks. It's not so much that I made a technical mistake in getting caught; he just opens his guard first, before I have a chance to pry it open. He takes the initiative, and that makes all the difference in the world. He's told me that he's ready to enter deep-half from this straightaway if the guy gets one of his legs out, so there's something else to explore.

Typing on a forum, there can often be misinterpretation since we can't see the move and are only left to describe it in words. But if this example sounds like what you've been playing around with, then it's a legit game. This guy is a fourth degree black belt and is still using it and owning people with it, so I don't see why it couldn't be developed on your end.

Sidenote: he too has short legs, albeit strong as hell.

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

If I understand the position correctly, it's similar to something I've seen some people use in GI Grappling as an open guard sweep. I've also seen it as a counter to a sloppy no hands half guard pass no gi. You trap the pressing leg in there as well and then you have basically a double quarter guard, I've done that. I've never seen someone make a whole game out of it, but there is probably something there if you want to spend time on it. I think it has potential :) Hope this helps.

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That's really helpful as a way to expand my poor terminology.

If I get it to stage 1, it's sort of double half-guard. I have their thighs and knees pinched together but I don't have my legs triangled yet. If they can get their knees on the floor and deny grips, they might get out. I'm working on a counter to that, a sort of hip bump sweep.

If I get to stage 2, it's somewhere between double half and double quarter. I have their knees pinched together. I've probably triangled my legs. If they try to stand out of it, it doesn't matter which way I push or pull them, they're going to fall down. I mentally refer to this as "the tree sweep" because people fall like a tree that's been chopped on and pushed in the right direction.
If I get to stage 3, it's double lockdown half. Legs triangle around knees with a lockdown. I have all kinds of time to compromise the base and turn a 180 or take the back (if I can get underhooks).

Referring me to Jeff is helpful. Is there anything you like to do from double quarter? I'm enjoying playing with the position, but I'm not going to be creating a "double halfguard style" of jiu jitsu. lol :D

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

If you have both of their ankles trapped AND both of there knees are on the same side, you have game for sure. There is a super easy sweep where you scoop your hips underneath them and some options off that as well. High level guys use it some if its what I think it is, its just the multitude of setups that allow you to use a guard regularly that is missing. If he can find that, he might have something :) I call the position double quarter guard and I've taught it and some entrys in my classes as early as 4 or so years go. The fist person I saw formally teach it was Jeff Glover when I was his dummy while he was teaching private lessons. You MUST have both their knees on the same side though. That is unless you've developed trouble shoots for that that I don't know about yet.

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Oh, in double quarter, you're on your side?

I'm on my back. I basically have both his legs in my guard. I'm usually working to get on my side. This is all really helpful though, I think I'm on the right track. I'll play with it some more and see what I can weave it into.

Thank you for your patience and response Brian.

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Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

The black belt I've been training with lately (Marcelo Monteiro) likes to do something along these lines. Gi and no gi. If I stand up to open his guard, before I create enough leverage to pry his legs open, he'll open his guard willingly causing his legs to go from around my hip/lower back (as is customary in closed guard) to fall down towards my thigh/knee region, at which point he'll close his guard back up. He's even gone down to the ankles, and it's made little difference if any. At this point, he'll usually sit up and hug my legs. To counter at this point, the only thing I could think of was to throw my hands out on the mat and try to, as you say, 'squeeze out like toothpaste', but then I feel my back getting taken so I immediately bail top position and give him the sweep instead of my back, hoping to at least salvage some sort of guard or to go for a submission in transition. The lesson for defending is to not have my legs too close together and be ready to kill one of his legs and advance to his half-guard as soon as physically possible. Or, go for footlocks. It's not so much that I made a technical mistake in getting caught; he just opens his guard first, before I have a chance to pry it open. He takes the initiative, and that makes all the difference in the world. He's told me that he's ready to enter deep-half from this straightaway if the guy gets one of his legs out, so there's something else to explore.

Typing on a forum, there can often be misinterpretation since we can't see the move and are only left to describe it in words. But if this example sounds like what you've been playing around with, then it's a legit game. This guy is a fourth degree black belt and is still using it and owning people with it, so I don't see why it couldn't be developed on your end.

Sidenote: he too has short legs, albeit strong as hell.

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I feel like I'm following you.

Yes, I started hitting this much more after going to Redzovik's open guard seminar. "Open your guard before he does." OK, I'm doing that, and sometimes, catching them out.

I've been enjoying trying to get underhooks and sneaking around to the back. It's hard to stop without accepting a sweep to mount. How do you base when you effectively have one leg and no hands on the floor?

I've been thinking about trying to grip the legs with my arms as well if my opponent gets all the way to standing: I've had people knee slice out of it if I have more of a double quarter position.

I'll look for that deep half entry.

Eh. Something to play with. Thank you Arman. :D

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

I feel like I'm following you.

Yes, I started hitting this much more after going to Redzovik's open guard seminar. "Open your guard before he does." OK, I'm doing that, and sometimes, catching them out.

I've been enjoying trying to get underhooks and sneaking around to the back. It's hard to stop without accepting a sweep to mount. How do you base when you effectively have one leg and no hands on the floor?

I've been thinking about trying to grip the legs with my arms as well if my opponent gets all the way to standing: I've had people knee slice out of it if I have more of a double quarter position.

I'll look for that deep half entry.

Eh. Something to play with. Thank you Arman. :D

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Can't tell you how happy it makes me that you remembered Prof. Adem's #1 principle of playing open guard. "If you open your guard, you'll play open guard. If your opponent opens your guard, he's going to smash you.":)

In case you wanted a recap on the seminar, here's the link to Open Guard Translated, the six principles of playing open guard to live and die by. I hit up BMac's seminar this past weekend here in Indianapolis and he talked mainly concepts and principles, in favor of different 'moves'. Jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu, and legit guys are legit guys, so I found a lot of stuff from the seminar that Brandon mentioned aligned directly with what Adem mentions in the video. Principles are the name of the game. It sounds like you've began taking some of these and making them your own, which is what it's all about at the end of the day. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnq9mN2odAg

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

I've been enjoying trying to get underhooks and sneaking around to the back.

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One detail that Brandon mentioned at his seminar about underhooks: essentially, fighting for underhooks is all about who can make the smallest circle with their pummel. He used a couple examples to show how efficient a guy can be. You don't want to pummel your whole arm through. It's far too obvious. You want to hide you underhooking arm as if you're holding a concealed weapon, and only when you have the necessary space, you pummel your hand through and the arm follows. Your shoulder is a great tool for managing a guys attempt at getting the underhook on you. Shoulder shrug, shoulder shrug, shoulder shrug. It's a sensitivity thing, but the underhook battle has a lot of subtle details that can only come with time & practice.

There's a lot of text on this page so this may have been said but Aoki used the same concept from top where he broke that guys arm in half and then flipped him off

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jarboe

Is there anything you like to do from double quarter?
~JJ

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Scoop my hips underneath him for the sweep (hip scoop sweep) and arm drag or duck under or prison guard to back take (all of those 3 depend on what he's doing, that's just ways to set up the back take so its really just those two things). I should disclaimer I us this a little but not a lot. Its a specific counter for me that doesn't come up often.