What do you guys think?
http://jiujitsustevie.com/learn-kill...-killer-tonon/
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What do you guys think?
http://jiujitsustevie.com/learn-kill...-killer-tonon/
I don't hate it....time and a place for everything
Wouldn't a simple solution to this method of "killing" the rubberguard (horrible phrasing) be stopped in its tracks with something simple like double bagging? My go-to escape from rubberguard was similar to his but after I get that foot under my leg, if they zombied my arm, I'd use that zombied arm to reach all the way back and grab the foot that I put under my leg it made it easier to step over that leg completely and then work on some kind of position from there, I usually end up in side control if I can clear the leg properly. (Hope that makes sense) I didn't learn it from the system, it works for me but it could have some huge flaws I haven't thought of yet!
My novice thoughts are that's not even a full squared up RG, seconded it doesn't stop any attacks, and the last thing is if you can stuff the knee can't you just pass with a knee slice or something.
You don't necessarily want to be completely squared up when playing RG. Just like any other guard, the more you hip out, the more mobility you are going to have in the hip that is up. And in the case of the RG, the less stress you will put on the knee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Timmermans
The bigger issue, as I see it, would be not playing with a tight knee squeeze with the right leg and little to no leg curl for posture control with the left leg. This will kill a loose RG a lot easier than a tight RG.
This should work well on a weak rubber guard so it definitely has it's place. However I think he might end up giving up the sweep against the more experienced rubber guard players out there. Fair play to Garry though you gotta try something, no point purely outright defending against any guard, just waiting for the guard player to make a mistake gets higher and higher risk as you go up the levels.
I haven't listened to the audio (at office) so maybe Tonon addresses this, but here's the possible counter-counter that popped into my head after a cursory viewing of this video:
Assuming he isn't able to first prevent Tonan from stepping over his right leg, the rubber guard player reaches down with this right hand to pull Tonon's left elbow up to his waist so that he can throw his leg wide after/during Tonon's somersault and land in mount (or less preferably top of deep half).
Obviously Gary knows what's up (and certainly doesn't need me to say so), and this escape surely has a place. I think that labeling this video "killing the rubber guard" is what might be a bit offensive to some. Or at least come off a little pretentious. I doubt he meant it that way.
I don't hate it but as soon as I start to clear the neck and he begins to post up and roll I could prolly beat him to jiu claw. I'm sure it could work but I'm willing to be the would run into problems too
I showed this to Eddie this weekend at the Rochester seminar and everyone agreed that we would just clear the neck. You cant hang out in new jersey without a meat hook or just go carni. Thats why i drive thru jersey fast and never hang out there for very long. They do have some cool things but living there is not ideal.
I only got to feel this a couple times before my injury but the counters being offered aren't as easy of a solution as they sound. At least I never found them to be when comparing to a similar situation of the opponent stuffing your leg and pressure passing in New Jersey.
First, double bagger just doesn't apply. You're in New Jersey and he has ahold of your leg. If he has a good hold, you're not getting back to full guard.
When you're in New Jersey and the opponent is pressuring forward, stuffing the leg properly, it's really hard to play any of the Kung fu options. You have to be able to both get the angle and bring your leg with you. Many times they will also have your stuffed leg pinched between their knees as well as a tight grip with their arm. It's also hard to hold back an aggressive passer in New Jersey with meat hook. I see good RG players have a hard time with this situation all the time when going against a higher level opponent or an explosive wrestler type who keeps tight and has a strong hold of the leg while passing.
He's going to have the same factors going for him in this pass variation as dealing with an opponent trying to pressure pass. The only option I found a high percentage of success with against higher level opponents in this sort of situation was Hindu control. It stops the pass option, doesn't let them back out when caught in a sub, and it will stop his ability to roll with this variation. He will also be practically handing you the hindulotine by lowering his head to the mat for the roll.
That said, you're going to have to beat him to the punch and get to Hindu control before he rolls. I see this pass successfully working against Kung fu options and meat hooks which is most current RG players games in New Jersey. Especially if he adds the detail of putting his head down up near your armpit instead of your waist as this would make the carni option that much harder.
He calls it the rubber guard killer in homage to bill coopers deep half guard killer. And whatever counter there is there is a counter to that and so on. The point is he won EBI so he obviously figured something out
There's obviously ways to defend this RG defence like any technique, but wouldn't these techniques be something to add to the system? It's only going to make all RG players aware of it, and strengthen the rubber guard offence and defence game
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by Ericp
this is just a way to break rubber guard, just like there are ways to break regular guard, it doesn't mean regular guard or rubber guard doesn't work any more. "killing the rubber guard" phrase is maybe the issue for us 10p lovers lol
ben eddy dropping science, loving hindu control man
Hubber guard isn't going anywhere! There's too many options, Gary Tonnen is a bad ass and he found a solution to ONE position of the Rubberguard path. But I'm willing to bet some of the mad scientists we have will find a counter to that and so on. It's all progress my friends. :)
Loving the open mindedness on here. Strong post by Ben Eddie. I've passed RG dozens of times so it doesn't bother me when guys come up with a pass. Personally, I'm still skeptical. I'd like to see him at least live drill it with a high level RG player. A killer RG player will confirm for sure if this is high percentage, or just a high risk hail mary kind of move.
He is The EBI champion mad #hespect
Well said ,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Walker
I met up with Garry @ EBI , Truly a nice guy
FUCK!!!!! It's all over now fellas:( ! I thought his vid was cute:)
HAHA this thread is so awesome. 10th planet practitioners praise themselves on being so open minded. That is, unless of course someone makes anything anti-rubber guard or anti twister. Then it becomes very hostile and ridiculing of the person making the video. Gotta love it. Just saying
The harsh truth ^^ Not saying everyone but for every 10PJJ hater, there is a 10PJJ practitioner hating them right back in proportion. We're all human. Different strokes for different folks. If anything, Garry Tonon is showing respect to 10th planet by accepting the rubber guard as a legitimate threat and searching for answers to beat it. He won the EBI, so obviously he has knows a little something about how to defend it. It's always the same comments when someone posts a video of someone showing how to beat a 10PJJ move "his partner wasn't doing the move properly" or "all you would have to do is this or that". Idk how your school does it but at my school, when someone is showing a move on you, you don't resist 100% and keep everything tight and you definitely don't counter what he's doing because there is a counter to everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericp
I'm somewhat splitting hairs, but saying that it is a way to kill the entire rubber guard is just not true. This is a great option to pass off of New Jersey, but if you start playing rubber guard from full guard and maintain good foot on the hip and knee squeeze or just double bag, or to put it another way, if you play the rubber guard as tightly as possible starting from full guard, it reduces the chances of ever getting put into New Jersey in the first place. If you properly play the rubber guard from full guard you're best option will hardly ever be to go through Jersey as a first choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin W.
Now if you play rubber guard from butterfly or half guard with an overhook, you'll end up in New Jersey more often, but I've never been told its a place where you can just rest and hang out indefinitely like invisible collar. When you hit New Jersey from half guard, its time to floor it and start working your kung fu to carni, gogo, or try for a mono-roll. If you try and fight to get your stuffed knee out to get back into New York, at least in my experience, that is going to be a losing uphill battle the vast majority of time, and every second you spend in New Jersey not trying to hip out and kung fu to safety, is a second that he is closer to passing you. Of course, no one has ever said you can't go back to playing butterfly or try to restablish lockdown if you can trap the leg before you get knee slice'd.
It is a great technique, against the one position of the rubber guard it applies best to, that leads to a scramble where you have a great chance of suprising the guy because if he doesn't know how to react in precisely the right way, you have the chance to take his back. But there are choices to be made in every scramble by both players, and there may very well be some excellent choices to be made by the other person as well. Counters for everything.
Its awesome Garry is putting out videos on how to deal with the rubber guard, and I hope he puts out more videos like this because it is great to see the perspective of a high level non 10P competitor, it gives us fresh perspective. If we never look at things in new ways, nothing changes, nothing grows. Having said that, I would still say highest percentage rubber guard defense is going to come from the people who are having to deal with high level rubber guard offense everyday, day in and day out, and I don't know if anyone is coming at Garry Tonon with a rubber guard that has any heat to it.
I find it amusing that the majority of "This video is a joke" guys are ultra super high level white and blues. Just putting that out there :-).
Open minded is one thing. But with a title like"kill the Rubberguard" I expected to see FIRE!!! I didn't even see smokeQuote:
Originally Posted by Ericp
If your idea of Rubberguard is New York. That's a small piece
Great post. Great point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Clark
Also, at the very beginning of the video he clearly states the he has no idea what it's called. That's a bad start. He basically admitting that he has little idea of what rubber guard as a system entails. So this means that he doesn't know what other problems will present themselves as he attempts the pass. That means he could be opening himself up to other attacks that he doesn't know about. The ony thing he addressed was a triangle threat. How can you kill what you don't understand?
Kill is a bad choice of words. It should be re-labeled, high risk rubber guard pass attempt IMO. I'm sure it's a great pass, but it's by no means a way to kill the rubber guard as a whole.
Like I said, I'll put more stock into it if he starts hitting it on high level rubber guard guys. Until then, I like his grappling style, but I'm not convinced.
Bruh, who do you think browses the forum most? It shouldn't be amusing. It should be expected. That said, Zach is a killer and he's not convinced either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony "The Goods" Garcia
And if his "killer" was an homage to Bill Cooper's deep half killer, he better be able to come up with a full DVD's worth of rubber guard killing tech's after rolling with a high level RG guy. Bill Cooper came up with his deep half killer after hours and hours of rolling against Jeff Glover. He didn't just come up with a pass against a purple who occasionally plays deep half and say, "Eureka! I've killed the deep half!" Hahaha. So in essence, this high risk pass is a joke compared to Cooper's deep half killer. Can't call something a killer if it has the risk of getting you killed in the process.
All that said, I still like Tonon and I hope this works. I'm always open to adding new things. I'm just not convinced. If you don't even "know what this is called" or "what the guy's doing here," how can you understand it well enough to defeat it?
I see what you're saying but I'm also referring to the hundreds of posts on Facebook as well. All I'm saying is there's way too many white/blues who are gulping there own kool-aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rosado
All challengers welcome lol. It could and prolly will work sometimes it just depends on the RG player. I kinda get the vibe that he may not believe RG is all that great seeing how its been around for a minute now and he doesn't seem to know even the basic terminology but he knows alot of other shit so its cool. i can see that s grip and the way he kinda stuffs that leg really disrupting the RG player, its kinda looks like a buttock compressor when he does the roll and nearly gets mounted. I like doing it like Keith Kavanagh said and grapping toes like you're gonna do a flyover but i just try to get my posture back from there i dont know bout trying the roll and all that but i think we should all give this a try. All and all i highly doubt this will be the death of the rubber guard, but will have its place.
fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony "The Goods" Garcia
It's just one pass, guys.
Not all passes work every time you try them either, on whatever guard you're trying to pass. That's why we speak about percentages.
Im diggin the hindu options. Osss