Is there any material about how rubber guard translates to the gi? Anyone have any personal experience or thoughts on the topic? I looked for previous threads but didnt find any.
Thanks!
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Is there any material about how rubber guard translates to the gi? Anyone have any personal experience or thoughts on the topic? I looked for previous threads but didnt find any.
Thanks!
If you go to YouTube and search for 'Planet X Jiu Jitsu' it'll come up with loads of videos to help you. :) Magnus from 10P Sweden specialises in a Gi approach to 10th Planet.
I believe Eddie had a series called the Hangman or the noose, something along those lines. It was a gi precursor to rubber guard.
I think it translates well. Some things require a little more effort since there's more friction, but that friction also allows for some more stability in some of the positions.
Escapes can be harder, but some of the offense can require a bit more adjusting, since the rubber guard inherently involves a smaller/tighter work space.
From a Judo/Japanese Jujitsu background, having handles makes escapes from pins take longer, but not really more difficult. fingers gripping gi are strong, but not stronger than good technique. There's obviously some chokes that don't show up in nogi, but defense is basically the same. I've noticed there's a lot more space in gi jujitsu, which, as we know, can work in our favor. I'd say the technique offered by 10P translates better to the gi world than the technique taught by gi schools translates to nogi. We work with the bare minimum required to succeed, so when we have more options, it can be a little overwhelming, but 10P doesn't put you at a disadvantage. The lack of sweat/extra friction does play a role, but I'd say overall it works for you rather than against you.
Ive always felt that rubber guard works better no gi. Take Mission Contorl where your opponent is t rexing his arms. In NoGi, he's stuck, he's got no way to posture. In gi he can grab your kimono and use that to drive up, or back.
Putting your feet inside the jacket collar is illegal in most tournaments now so the Hangman is out if you are trying to find competition moves.
Some things work better is the croc and pump series, some things are more difficult, mainly the zombie,
Respectfully disagree that no-gi prepares you for gi better than gi prepares you for no-gi. If you do a ton of gi, then go to no-gi, you'll have a fighters chance based on technique. But doing only no-gi than trying gi you're a fish out of water.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Schrimsher
What makes more sense is that no-gi far and wide prepares you for MMA wayyy better than gi. That's been my impression of 10th planet, which to me is the preeminent no-gi system out there. But gi is a different game. Haven't played around with rubber guard enough in gi to throw out comparisons, but part of the fun is seeing what translates to the other and in what capacity
You're more than welcome to disagree, I believe I said this was from my perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
The way I see it, you take a judo player and a wrestler, put a gi on the wrestler, and he's still has all his grips, plus a few new ones he doesn't know. What he doesn't know may indeed hurt him, but what he does know hasn't been taken away. Take the gi off the judo player, and unless he's trained no gi judo (which I think all judoka should do) he's lost all his grips.
I think the same thing applies on the ground, though perhaps less dynamically. Again, you're free to disagree. I agree wholeheartedly that 10P translates directly to MMA far better than gi, I agree that 10P is the go-to system for nogi grappling.
My personal experience is:
- Breaking the opponent down is a lot tougher (cuz of the handles the gi provides)
- The zombie is harder (again, cuz of the handles)
BUT.... once you've got that hand to the mat, everything else automatically becomes a lot tighter. For one, it's harder for your opponent to simply power out (i.e. both upwards and backwards) of the rubber guard - they're more likely to get stuck halfway. Also, all the more complex positions (i.e. muddy waters, dead orchard) are so, so much tighter and a lot more difficult for opponents to squirm out of. ;)
I've only tried a few things from RG in the gi,but gogo clinch is absolutely brutal with the gi. I managed to get the grips for a cross choke whilst I had the guy I was rolling with in the clinch and the tap was near instantaneous. I'm also a fan of perpendicular jiu claw with the gi,just so much control
Cheers. From my perspective, I would debate that if you took two people who have never trained a day of martial arts in their lives, but equal in athleticism, age, intellect, etc., and you train one exclusively in the gi for a couple years then train the other exclusively no-gi for a couple years, then the gi guy would hold his own for the most part in no-gi (and he'd start to figure things out pretty quickly) while the no-gi guy would be thrown off by a lot of the sleeve/lapel game, and he'd have a hard time finding an answer for them. This would obviously differ from the judo/wrestler debate, in which I would totally agree with you that the wrestler probably has the upper hand. So I feel like if your focus is to be a high-level submission grappling artist, you have to train gi to reach your potential and as Marcelo says, "To have the finest technique." If your intention is to train MMA, then you could definitely do without the gi.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Schrimsher
One thing I like about 10th planet is that they know what they're all about. It's Jiu Jitsu for MMA. In my opinion, there's no better ground fighting school to train at if MMA is your intention. But to fairly and duly call yourself a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, you'd have to train gi. One could argue though that this is just semantics. Again, it's all about perspective and your intentions. As much as I pray to stay healthy and continue to work toward a black belt at my school, I won't feel complete as a ground fighter until i've poured the same amount of time into the 10th planet system. To be an all-around black belt, it requires training everything. So much shit, so little time...right?:)
I'll add one note here to be fair though...just because a guy is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt don't mean he can't get knock the F**K out by one punch. So there's that
i was trying the 100% in the gi the other night. couldnt get it at all. i think rubber guard would prob be easier but iam not sure.
I'll be tring it out most likely feb 15th at grappling industry :) Didnt have the oppertunity really last comp.
It's always been done in a Gi - Eddie wears half a Gi all the time! :p
I started nogi and then started gi and i felt like there wasn't as big as a difference as some people say. now im only a white belt with a mouth and the school i train gi in is a pretty new school so this prolly has alot to do with it, but i felt pretty good after my first night, and even better ever since. I did get collar choked once but it made me pretty aware after that and it hasn't happened since. I do think training in the gi is good so you have an understanding of the disadvantages of wearing the gi because in a street fight you may have to deal with having those disadvantages, but theres also situations where you cannot rely on using your gi as a weapon and for that reason i believe the nogi fundamentals are better habits and thats what i would put my reps in. I always try to be conscience of when im grabbing the gi or when i think im open to strikes and things like that. it's all jiu jitsu tho, if you do both, you're gonna have fun with both of them, but also if you care about self defense you need to understand both anyway.
It's all jiu-jitsu. With variances in body builds, experience, partners, sweat - what jiu-jitsu teaches you is to think on the spot in a grappling match. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that most of us would easily use head hair as a handle if we were ever attacked and needed to defend ourselves. It's all jiu-jitsu/grappling, and we all have different games. being open and flexible is the key to it all, imo. peace.
It took me a few weeks to get used to the gi but I've been training in it a LOT, and every single technique I do nogi translates, except the more scramble based escapes due to the added friction. I'm learning new grips, but they're very easy to assimilate as the principles are very similar, if not exactly the same as when I was doing nogi. At first it was kinda boring because I was terrible at the grips, but now I have a basic understanding of the grips and positions, I'm loving the intricacies and chokes, and I learn something new every time I train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
In response to the OP, I've found that basic Rubber Guard works very well in the Gi, especially to set up things like the Omoplata and Carni. Lockdown half-guard is also great with the extra friction, especially when you can use the belt and grab the pants to help with the sweeps.
Great way to put it! I started JJ for self defense and just because its hard as hell haha. Why do JJ when u can learn JJ for MMA, that was my reasons for studing 10p JJ at the beggining, then grew from there especially since eddie seemed to be a bit bullied by the BJJ comunity for his stance of no gi JJ for mma and ect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdouglas
Im gonna look what planet X has to offer since there are no fully commited no-gi schools around. interessting discussion between William Schrimsher And Arman Fathi
I find that the arm threading type techniques (zombie, barataplata, duda, hindulotine) are harder to pull off because the gi adds a lot of bulk and friction.
I played with Rubber guard for the first time in gi last night. Mind you, it wasn't REALLY the first time, but it was the first time after I'd properly learned mission control to zombie to New york. (s/o to Josh at 10p Chicago for letting me drop in and breaking it down. You guys are beasts. It was an honor and I can't wait for the next time). I have a slightly different perspective than the post above. I found zombie to be WAYYYY easier to achieve in gi. While it is true that the gi adds a lot of friction, this is more amplified in his inability to rip his arm out than it is for you to achieve the zombie. For good measure, there appear to be things you could do with the lapel and sleeve, but let's not get into that habit too much. What I found to be effective is using some 'gi' principles to break the guys posture allowing you to get to mission control. In short, I think rubber guard in gi can be extremely, extremely effective if you properly balance out using gi and no-gi principles as appropriate. This would obviously be multiplied if the guy doesn't know what you're doing. No one at my school really plays 10p game except for one or two dudes, but I'd imagine zombie would be harder to achieve if the guy were anticipating it. But friction can definitely be your friend, as long as you don't let him grab your lapels for stabilization. To be fair, it'll most likely take years of heefer to properly break down and dissect rubber guard in gi to the degree and level of sophistication that it's already been broken down in no-gi. All part of the fun, I guess:)
Right now we are strickly focusing on No Gi for EBI 3. But after EBI, we will spend more time in the garage and experiment more on the rubber Gi. I've been studying Keenan and other guys who play the similar flexible game as Cora in the Gi and I see so many things that can be done with the Gi in relation to the rubber guard. All sort of chokes can come off really sneaky with the Gi on using the rubber guard system. We just need more time to mess with it. The fun just started.
I like using RG in a Gi as I find it less forgiving when first trying new things. Also I think using the zombie is really effective with a Gi as I usually hold the collar after weaving around the arm as its just something extra to hold to keep that arm tight when setting things up.
Rubber Guard in the gi is way easier; I'm sure Eddie agrees. Just don't be basic by trying to zombie straight from mission control. There are plenty of easier ways to get the hand on the mat with the jacket. Once you get New York, the world is your oyster.
Anything specific come to mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce Kim
http://youtu.be/EcCbQwsjJrY?t=15s
15 seconds in is a good one.
I guess I'm confused here. He's grabbing the sleeve and swimming the arm to get an overhook and break the posture. But how does this relate to mission control? One of my hands is tied up holding my mission control leg, so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to grab the sleeve and swim to an overhook as an alternative to zombie. I must be missing something here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce Kim
This has nothing to do with Mission Control, this is to get the hand on the mat. You can either settle for the overhook or swing your leg up for the New York.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray
But previously you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce Kim
You are suggesting getting the hand to the mat BEFORE mission control?Quote:
Just don't be basic by trying to zombie straight from mission control.
I was telling you that there are better ways to get the hand on the mat, rather than zombie from mission control when in the gi.
The video I posted provides an easier method where you can skip Mission Control in the Rubber Guard path and straight to New York.