Muddy Waters Help?

Hey Guys,

So recently I have started to work on getting to muddy waters. I have no issue getting to Invisible Collar, but when I Pump and pull their arm through, and switch to what is considered "High Double Bag", by the time I go to reach for the grip for the double bag (in what would be Muddy Waters), they are able to pressure my leg off their shoulder and I lose position. I believe this to be mostly because I have a hard time reaching my foot to complete the double bag quickly.

The only people I can do this to are people who are smaller than me.

Any pointers that could help me out? I would love to start working the position more effectively.

Thanks Guys.

Invisible Collar to Muddy Waters is a High Guard setup that requires the far side shoulder to be locked tight. You can get away with partially locking the shoulder against smaller people, but you'll lose it during the switch against larger guys.

Whether or not you can effectively trap that shoulder depends on a number of things; he's forcibly giving you the omoplata angle, his farside arm is cupping your chilldog arm, you're being impatient, or maybe your flexibility isn't there yet.

DM me a vid.

Just like you can clear the neck from New York to Chill Dog because there is a correct angle and steady pressure, you need that for this transitions as well. As Royce brought up above, its pretty likely you don't 100% have the shoulder trapped. Look at the invisible crock or similar set ups to a shoulder from invisible collar and begin thinking about it as another step: Invisible collar, shoulder trapped in invisible collar, muddy waters. That's my suggestion.

Also remember that recross your feet first and then the hugging the knee arm grabs your foot, only then would you NEED to take the invisible collar hand out (either to start packing your knee in or go right to attacking the arm). So if its done that way, there shouldn't really be a window.

Also, your using a crock set up and not the "Pump" like you said, right? Because if your pumping the trapped arm across, that is a set up known as the jelly fish and I typically swim move from there and NOT muddy waters. But I think you mean the crock set up.

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Originally Posted by Brian Debes

Just like you can clear the neck from New York to Chill Dog because there is a correct angle and steady pressure, you need that for this transitions as well. As Royce brought up above, its pretty likely you don't 100% have the shoulder trapped. Look at the invisible crock or similar set ups to a shoulder from invisible collar and begin thinking about it as another step: Invisible collar, shoulder trapped in invisible collar, muddy waters. That's my suggestion.

Also remember that recross your feet first and then the hugging the knee arm grabs your foot, only then would you NEED to take the invisible collar hand out (either to start packing your knee in or go right to attacking the arm). So if its done that way, there shouldn't really be a window.

Also, your using a crock set up and not the "Pump" like you said, right? Because if your pumping the trapped arm across, that is a set up known as the jelly fish and I typically swim move from there and NOT muddy waters. But I think you mean the crock set up.

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Thanks for the info Brian,

Thats the thing I am finding very strange, I am very good at the invisible croc, actually that is the first submission I hit in competition. The path I am currently using is: Mission Control, Zombie, New York, Chill Dog, Invisible Collar--- At this point I control the wrist of the not Zombied arm (with the arm controlling the zombied arm) and pull it through (as I do the "pump") --- Once its through I switch my leg over the shoulder, but when I try to reach around my leg to grab my foot I can barely get a grip on my toes to keep the grip there...

Its like the setup Eddie shows at 1:24:00, of episode 113 of MTS... Except when I try to go high double bag in comparison to when Eddie shows it, it looks like his leg (thats going over the shoulder) is perpendicular to their neck (almost like a triangle), while mine is more at an angle thats going diagonal over the neck, but across the back..