Lockdown help

I'm a white belt in a school that does not train 10th planet but I found myself using 10p techniques naturally (although totally wrong and sloppy the idea was there) after little while studying videos and the Books I am coming along well and using a lot of the stuff on my opponents my issue is when I use the lockdown some people despite me having the double underhooks reach down hug both legs and escape leaving me totally screwed.

What are my options here? Aside from going to the Whip Up faster? Assume it's failed and my legs have been grabed what's the plan B? (not THE Plan B haha) thanks!!

Being another whitebelt in a similar position, I can relate, and also not offer you any high-level advice. But for what it's worth my experience is that you must get off your back as fast as possible. If you are flattened out, lockdown or not, it's going to go badly. Especially if the guy is bigger, stronger, more experienced... Just get on your side, either side, as fast as possible.

Another option is to transition when they start messing around and trying to open my lockdown. A lot of times guys will go cross-body on me, turning their head toward my lockdown. That sometimes opens a hole on the other side and I can slip my leg out and go immediately into full guard, then transition to Rubber Guard. Another transition option is super-stomp into butterfly.

You gotta be active... use the lockdown to move them around. You can drag guys all over the mat with that lockdown. But if you chill out flat on your back, they will open it and pass.

Thanks very much I stay as active as possible and generally this happens either after a failed Whip up or its is so fast I don't even get the chance, my only hope so far is to pull my legs out as quickly as possible and try to avoid him getting side on top of me. I am going to keep a look out for that whole when they attempt to grab my legs

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Originally Posted by 10thPlanet Leo

I'm a white belt in a school that does not train 10th planet but I found myself using 10p techniques naturally (although totally wrong and sloppy the idea was there) after little while studying videos and the Books I am coming along well and using a lot of the stuff on my opponents my issue is when I use the lockdown some people despite me having the double underhooks reach down hug both legs and escape leaving me totally screwed.

What are my options here? Aside from going to the Whip Up faster? Assume it's failed and my legs have been grabed what's the plan B? (not THE Plan B haha) thanks!!

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Is it like he's turning his back to you almost, is he putting a shoulder in your face, how's he grabbing the legs? A lot of the time, anytime I'm in real trouble I bail to rubberguard if possible but sometimes it's not and you may have to switch to dogfight. Being active and getting on your side as soon as possible is really important, that could be the difference too. Like Craig said be active and float them around. That's the best advice I have for ya anyways, I'd have to see it to really say much more. If it keeps happening and you get stuck I'd say take a video showing the exact spot that's a problem.

If you have double unders and he's able to reach your legs, either he has super long arms, or your double unders are weak.

If you have double unders, that should prevent him from grabbing your legs. Maybe your double unders aren't high enough. My underhooks are usually at their arm pits and I'm s-gripping or gable gripping high up on their back.

But to answer your question, if he has a hold of your legs or hips, I would imagine he's going for a buttock compressor, if that's the case, release your lockdown and stiff arm his head, and escape, stand back up, reset.

First thing I would say is stretch the lockdown out and pinch your knees as tight as you can at all times. Don't stay crunched up or keep your legs close to them. As soon as you close the lockdown, you should pinch your knees and stretch it out, then start whipping! Check out the Lockdown flow chart in the technique guide.

First thing I would recommend is study the lock down flow chart. Dial in on those transitions and you will be folding dudes up in no time.

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First thing I would recommend is study the lock down flow chart.

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That, and get the VIP membership (trust me the $5 is very worth it and more) and try to absorb as many of the lockdown and HG episodes as you can (I think the recent one Eddie goes over some lockdown/HG basics).

In terms of my experience, you def can't stall in lockdown (or any HG). Once you secure the lockdown and get the double unders you need to decide right there if you're going for the whip or are you going to try to fight to full guard). If you try to use it too much to rest then a high level grappler is going use either that pass you describe (I believe it's the buttocks compressor) or they're turn to one hip and sprawl heavy on you, go no-hand pass (I call it the GSP pass cause he used it on Dan Hardy and BJ Penn) or if they study the system too go Twister pass. All of which are bad for you.

ANyhoo hope the above and everyone else's help, be curious to see what other's experiences and suggestions are. Some folks still criticize HG (esp lockdown) but as long as you keep drilling it, be willing to learn from mistakes, etc eventually people will start to avoid your HG (and then you get to work something different!).

I like to counter the Buttock compressor by anticipating his downward movement, whipping down and getting my under hook or under hooks back from there I start my Lockdown game or switch to RG - if get stays tight or I miss my opportunity to whip I would go into wrestler mode and push off the head and try to scrabble for a good position - if all else fails I keep the pimp arm strong and recover guard as he / she passes

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Originally Posted by HerbChao

or if they study the system too go Twister pass. All of which are bad for you.

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If they turn and try to go twister pass, you can look for the Apollo to arm triangle. It's there if they aren't controlling your wrist.

If the posture up and take their weigh off you. I say ffff it and escape and get to your feet and wrestle, and win the the take down and pass guard and go too offense from the top....see if he has any bottom game ?

had a similar issue with a buddy that is just big (longer limbs) and strong (he is a beast).
Studying the 100% sweep changed everything - he will not even try it anymore because he knows he will be sweep... 100%

What do you guys to to counter the forearms in the face stalling from lockdown? I know that this is a part of the game, and you have to deal with it, but I just want to see what you guys like to do when someone just puts his forearm in your face, and doesn't let you get off any offense. I had this happen to me at a competition on saturday, I swept him in the end, but it took a lot out of me and I felt I was losing more energy than needed.

Hi Dusan,
If it is the arm on the "free side" (not locked down), I have had some success with using the whip up to cause them to post their hands out. That normally can give me the time needed to get the deep under hook and start the sweep. If it is the locked side, I can usually push the elbow to the free side and take the back via the old school system (dog fight, old school sweeps, etc.)

Hey Rick, thanks a lot of the quick response :)

Sounds good, I'll play arround with those 2 options. But are these only available when you have the underrhook? I pulled guard and since he knows I play lockdown a lot in competition, he was really 100% focused on closing his underhook and putting the "free side" forearm in my neck to prevent me from establishing any kind of offense. My underhook was like, wrist deep. I found it really hard to move at first but after picking up the pace and threatening with standing up, he finally tried to guillotine me and got swept with the electric chair, but I felt really shut down at first and would like to prevent things like this in the future, especially because I have had a lot of success with the lockdown in the past.

The old school system actually assumes you don't have the underhook - so it is a perfect solution for what you are describing.
Actually, the old school system will prepare you for his reactions too.
If he is using his free side, then you can shove the arm (with a little help from a quick hip bump) and get out to take the back. He will likely whizzer you and then you will go to dog fight. Once you have the back take/dog fight on one side and electric/stoner series on the other... it gets deadly. Let me know if that does or does not make sense. Trying to be brief but don't want to leave you hanging.

Everything makes perfect sense. I love playing dogfight/electric underhooks, it's probably my highest % sweeping option.

Are there any MTS episodes where Eddie talks about this?

Again, thanks a lot for your help.

Not a bother, we are all on here trying to learn and evolve; glad to help.

He does talk about old school sweep in MTS 10, 2:54 time mark but I could not find a reference to a clean back take. I think that is because the most basic defense is a whizzer so you have to go to dog fight before you can take the back. However, if the person is just driving their elbow into your throat and stalling, then he or she likely does not have a strong half guard game and you might be able to go straight to the back. think, if they don't put the whizzer in for dog fight - straight to the back. I did not see this in MTS but it is probably on there somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Dusan Spica

What do you guys to to counter the forearms in the face stalling from lockdown? I know that this is a part of the game, and you have to deal with it, but I just want to see what you guys like to do when someone just puts his forearm in your face, and doesn't let you get off any offense. I had this happen to me at a competition on saturday, I swept him in the end, but it took a lot out of me and I felt I was losing more energy than needed.

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Remember that the first time someone does something you dont expect in a tournament, it's going to sap more energy and concern you a lot more than if it's something you've been through before. Next time it happens, even without the strategy tips you're getting in this thread, you'll be more comfortable in the position and that alone will help you out.

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Originally Posted by 10thPlanet Leo

I'm a white belt in a school that does not train 10th planet but I found myself using 10p techniques naturally (although totally wrong and sloppy the idea was there) after little while studying videos and the Books I am coming along well and using a lot of the stuff on my opponents my issue is when I use the lockdown some people despite me having the double underhooks reach down hug both legs and escape leaving me totally screwed.

What are my options here? Aside from going to the Whip Up faster? Assume it's failed and my legs have been grabed what's the plan B? (not THE Plan B haha) thanks!!

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Hey, I thought I would weigh in too. Lockdown was my project as soon as I put my white belt on and I've been working on it for two years now. That's not much, but I know what you're going through.

Some problems to be on the lookout for:
1) If you're learning lockdown from Submissions 101, you're learning old school stuff. It's not totally invalid: the old school whip saves my butt sometimes when I get flattened out by somebody huge and strong. But you need to know the new stuff. So echo that $5 membership: it's worth the money.
2) If nobody else at your school is playing lockdown, I think you'll find that as you master new techniques, your opponents will learn how to shut them down. For me, I've found that oftentimes there is another technique you need to know to counter their action. As you learn all your options, your opponent will have a harder time getting you into a position that they can stall you out in.
3) I've found that a lot of decent technique isn't going to work if your muscles are weak. For me, shrimping is a good example. At first, I couldn't shrimp to save my life because my core strength was so poor. Some of your techniques will work a lot better later after you've practiced the crap out of them.
4) In my opinion (and I hope someone more skilled will correct me if I'm wrong), a lockdown that is applied too low hurts more but isn't as good for movement. You want to be able to force their knee to bend. If your outside leg is slicing their calf, it'll be harder for you to move them and they're going to be fighting you really hard to make the pain stop.


My two cents. :)

~JJ

If you are flattened out on your back with double unders, try swinging one arm fast towards do your opponent's armpit (this does not require precision, that's just the general direction) while bring your knees towards your chest (the lockdown will still be in, you are taking them off their balance point). You are trying to push them off your chest so you can roll to your hip. That's a variation of the Whip Up.

Also, try chin strapping anyone trying a Buttock Compressor. They are trying to back out of your lockdown - it's hard to move backwards when doing so drives someone's hand into your throat. Sometimes people can still manage to break open the lock down, but that's when you let go and push their head down while scooting backwards and out. I often end up in butterfly guard when I do that.

One more question:

I have something that is bothering me a bit recently:

Because I play lockdown a lot, a lot of my teammates have started doing something which really makes it hard for me to lock it in. If they are on both of their knees, they sort of "hide" their shin, so it's really hard for me to put the lockdown in. If you're having a hard time imagining this, if I want to lockdown their right leg, my left leg has to go over their right leg to make it a lockdown. But they sort of like turn their shin towards their butt and are almost sitting on their heel, which makes it hard to put a lockdown on. I usually have to move them or really dig that left leg in, and this works after a while, but it's really annoying. Anyone experience this as well?

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Originally Posted by Dusan Spica

One more question:

I have something that is bothering me a bit recently:

Because I play lockdown a lot, a lot of my teammates have started doing something which really makes it hard for me to lock it in. If they are on both of their knees, they sort of "hide" their shin, so it's really hard for me to put the lockdown in. If you're having a hard time imagining this, if I want to lockdown their right leg, my left leg has to go over their right leg to make it a lockdown. But they sort of like turn their shin towards their butt and are almost sitting on their heel, which makes it hard to put a lockdown on. I usually have to move them or really dig that left leg in, and this works after a while, but it's really annoying. Anyone experience this as well?

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I'm pretty sure "sitting on the foot" is like lockdown defense 101. I've been told that sometimes you can use your right knee to shove their leg out and grab ahold of it. So far that hasn't really worked for me.

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Originally Posted by Dusan Spica

One more question:

I have something that is bothering me a bit recently:

Because I play lockdown a lot, a lot of my teammates have started doing something which really makes it hard for me to lock it in. If they are on both of their knees, they sort of "hide" their shin, so it's really hard for me to put the lockdown in. If you're having a hard time imagining this, if I want to lockdown their right leg, my left leg has to go over their right leg to make it a lockdown. But they sort of like turn their shin towards their butt and are almost sitting on their heel, which makes it hard to put a lockdown on. I usually have to move them or really dig that left leg in, and this works after a while, but it's really annoying. Anyone experience this as well?

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Yep, they don't want to be put in the Lockdown, lol. They can triangle their legs or just tuck the foot away, they key is to hide the knee-pit too so you can't hook it. Josh Hinger won't let me get him in lockdown ever! He is notorious for this. I'd like to think I played a small part in helping him develop his lockdown defense as of late, haha! Just from trying to get him in it so many times. I've spent the past year of my life trying to catch him in the lockdown, lmao. #nosuccess

Lots of help here thanks guys

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I'm pretty sure "sitting on the foot" is like lockdown defense 101. I've been told that sometimes you can use your right knee to shove their leg out and grab ahold of it. So far that hasn't really worked for me.

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I know Eddie has posted in some of the MTS the black mamba/quarter clinch path (when all you have is their ankle) and trying to get the knee to the floor to get lockdown (he went over this during my Aug trip to HQ during EBI IV week "push pull lockdown!" lol). If they're doing a prayer knee stance then obv you prob gotta go to something else. One thing I've started to notice is as folks get more obsessed with stopping lockdown/electric underhooks at all costs, it opens up the opportunity for other half guard variations and sweeps (for me I've been trying to work some deep half, some semi-traditional half, and butterfly half).

If you have time and the money, look into Stephen Kesting's dvd on half guard, he goes over 3 different types and common counterattacks to halfguard people will use once they realize it's one of your go to positions (and he then shows the counter to those counters). Also Big Nog had a good book years back (guard/half guard for MMA, it's not in production anymore but you can still get a good condition copy on ebay amazon of barnes and nobles partners if you look hard enough). I use alot of Big Nog's sweeps when people try to shut down my lockdown.

The great thing about using 10th planet when you're the lone wolf is it forces people to eventually learn to counter those, and then when that happens you can go back to the "traditional" tech that everyone else already knows and learn to develop that too.