Roger Gracie, Maia and the state of BJJ in modern MMA

[brianspinaltap]

Call me crazy if you like, but I don't think Roger trained in a gi to prepare for that fight. Doesn't that undermine the whole point of the article?

[Derek Dunford]

I'm sure he didn't train in a gi for the fight, but you gotta figure the majority of the time he has spent on the mat was in a gi. If those same hours were spent without a gi, working on mma applicable techniques as opposed to collar and sleeve nonsense, the fight might have played out differently. Its hard to take this article seriously when this stuff has all been said before.. By Eddie.

[brianspinaltap]

I'm pretty sure Roger Gracie knows how to grapple without collar and sleeve grips... He just looked exhausted. I think he's fighting at the wrong weight. He looked starved.

As for submissions - the last UFC in Brazil was full of them. Why was that? That's the question that should be being asked.

[Derek Dunford]

Haha I'm sure he does, that isn't the point I was trying to make. I was simply saying he has spent most of his time training with a tool that isn't there in mma, and using that same tool as a way to set up most of his techniques. You take away that tool (the gi) and add strikes.. Well he doesn't have a whole lot left I imagine. He has pretty much said the same thing, they even quoted him in the article. He is still a fantastic grappler, but most of his go to techniques don't work as well in mma. As for the brazil question.. Bjj guys vs Bjj guys, or Bjj guys against opponents with inferior ground skills = higher chance of submissions.

[brianspinaltap]

But isn't that like saying - "you can't speak both French and Spdnish. All those years speaking French will f your Spanish up!"

And yet people can be fluent in 4 languages! The idea that having trained a lot of gi stops you being able to fight no hi is an assumption. I'm wary of assumptions.

Rickson trained for years with a gi. Watch Choke. 3 months before his fights he switched to no gi. That didn't stop him using Jiu Jitsu.

Damian Mia is mention in the article, obviously. Braulio and Drysdale are just starting out, let's see where they get..,

Those Brazilisn guys in the last UFC were fighting top notch competitors yet they went sub crazy on them. I bet they all trained in a gi for years. (An assumption I'll have to check) I also bet they have a hard job getting a visa to fight in the US more often.

[Derek Dunford]

Rickson wasn't fighting the well rounded athletes of today's mma, he fought less than stellar opponents back when gracie jiu jitsu alone was still cutting edge enough to win a mma fight. I'm not saying you can't be good at both, but if your goal is to compete in mma , training in the gi isn't the most effective method. To use your analogy, imagine you want to practice speaking Italian in time for a trip to rome. You have a year to prepare. Would it be more efficient to practice speaking French for 10 months, and then switch to Italian the last two months? They are similar enough, right? Or would it be wiser to just focus on the language you will actually be speaking? Realistically you can only train so much in a period of time, and what you have been training day in and day out for ten years is going to be ingrained in you much more than anything you dabble in for a year or two. Regardless of how similar they might be. Instead of ten years of grabbing and pulling on something that isn't there, why not focus on techniques that will work almost the exact same way, gi or no gi,, strikes or no strikes?

[Paul Terry]

It is not so much as to tell a person to abandon the gi completely, but it is advisable to work on clinching and holding even when in the gi instead tugging and pulling to develop a different mindset when going into a mma fight.
And because people who train with the gi majority of the time naturally tug and pull need to drop the gi long enough to develop not only a clinch game but different looks and set ups for submissions that they normally wouldn't practice or go for in the gi. And in this you find the 10th Planet system. The recipe for success.

[DavisDiosdado]

An indirect case for the 10PJJ system. Haha! Read between the lines & you will see that Jiu Jitsu is & always has been evolving. Mr. Bravo & the 10PJJ system is at the forefront. Change is inevitable. Growth is optional.

[David Rosado]

Call me crazy if you like, but I don't think Roger trained in a gi to prepare for that fight. Doesn't that undermine the whole point of the article?

I'm willing to bet that 80% of his lifetime of training has been gi based. You'll also notice that with Gi players, instead of having a tight clinch based game, they're very open. Closed guard with wrist control is still the Nogueira style, for example. Old habits die hard.

I'm pretty sure Roger Gracie knows how to grapple without collar and sleeve grips... He just looked exhausted. I think he's fighting at the wrong weight. He looked starved.

I'm sure he does. But how efficient is he at it if a lower ranked guy was able to out grapple him?

As for submissions - the last UFC in Brazil was full of them. Why was that? That's the question that should be being asked.

Because most of the fights were BJJ guys vs BJJ guys? Not a whole lot of wrestlebox USA going on in that event.

But isn't that like saying - "you can't speak both French and Spdnish. All those years speaking French will f your Spanish up!"

And yet people can be fluent in 4 languages! The idea that having trained a lot of gi stops you being able to fight no hi is an assumption. I'm wary of assumptions.

Rickson trained for years with a gi. Watch Choke. 3 months before his fights he switched to no gi. That didn't stop him using Jiu Jitsu.

Damian Mia is mention in the article, obviously. Braulio and Drysdale are just starting out, let's see where they get..,

Those Brazilisn guys in the last UFC were fighting top notch competitors yet they went sub crazy on them. I bet they all trained in a gi for years. (An assumption I'll have to check) I also bet they have a hard job getting a visa to fight in the US more often.

I'm fluent in 2 languages. I'm dominant in one language. I'm great at debating. I having a mastery of the English language is a huge asset in being quick witted and being able to communicate the thoughts I formulate. However, despite being fluent in spanish, I'm not eloquent. I will lose a debate to a 10 year old because it's not second nature. I have to think a bit before communicating. And that goes for most people. Sure you can speak multiple languages, but you'll always have one language you're most dominant in because you spend most of your time using that one.

Rickson also fought a bunch of cans during a time where grappling was still low level on the opposing side.

Maia was used an example of how his style evolved for MMA. Very clinch based. I believe Drysdale and Braulio have potential.


The Gi is not the devil. It has it's purpose and it's still a beautiful art in its own way. But Roger hasn't being doing 100% no gi that long. You really should focus on 100% no gi before an MMA match. And you should train with the expectation to get punched. Otherwise you'll have a rough night.

[brianspinaltap]

"I having a mastery of the English language.." - you might want to rethink your mastery....

Like I said before Roger would have trained 100% no Gi, and he obviously would have been training with the expectation to get hit. Reading this thread it feels like you guys think he was wearing a Gi the week before the fight and pulling off berimbolos! Really?

I agree on the clinch game philosophy though - Maia being a good example.

Stats on UFC on Fuel 10 here - it wasn't BJJ guys vs BJJ guys, from what I can see, it was Brazilian guys vs American guys, mainly.
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles...-Fuel-10-53099