Denny Prokopos vs AJ Agazarm IBJJF American Nationals 2013

[Scott Yockel]

All I'm saying is Denny was going for the kill and Aj seemed ok with winning by points. I find that kinda frustrating.

True Story!!! In my eyes Denny was trying to win the match whole time. Aj was just trying not to get sub'd. I do think the ref stuck by the rules for the event, which is also part of the reason I dont compete in IBJJF.

[Compella]

Fuck IBJJF, NAGA all day. All subs legal, points for sub attempts; had it been those rules Denny would've won. The fighter is rewarded for going for the finish, as it should be. You shouldn't have to be a rules lawyer to win a grappling match. You looked good GOO, no one can deny you are an elite level black belt my friend

[Mike Nall]

Here is my match I defended the takedown then fired for a reverse triangle should have been 0 points for him. I defended the shoot to the front headlock and went for the guillotine why 2 points? why stop a full blown marcelotine?

Hey Denny, awesome match! Hopefully this clarifies the rules.

As far as the initial takedown points, at 2:20 he gets the takedown, and he must control for 3 seconds. You attacked with the reverse triangle, so he can not get takedown points until the submission is successfully defended. Once he escaped the triangle, the ref counts 3 seconds and gave AJ the 2 points.

The reason why they stopped the guillotine is funky, and it happened to Rafa Mendes for example during the Worlds this year in his 3rd match during an armbar attempt. If you have a submission locked on and your opponent intentionally flees the mat in a way that is not considered a legit sub defense (ie. standing up and walking out of bounds while locked in a triangle), then they get DQ'd and you win. If they go out of bounds just due to defending the submission (ie. Cobrinha vs. Rader in the 2012 No-Gi Worlds Final I have attached below) then they give 2 points to the guy with the submission and restart you on the feet.

That is what happened to you. You got 2 points since AJ defending the guillotine resulted in you both going out of bounds. For what it's worth, I think they should restart in the middle with the submission locked in.

Here's a video to reference. Cobrinha locks a RNC on Justin Rader at 10:10 and then Rader rolls out of bounds. They restart on the feet and give Cobrinha 2 points.

[Kurzy]

Points are gay.

[Mike Nall]

Look at the guillotine Denny had locked in. Red stopped em, stood em up, and gave points. That's not really right, right?

No, oddly, that is correct. I mentioned it in the post above, but it happened to notables such as Rafael Mendes and Cobrinha within the past year. In ADCC if a submission goes out of bounds they restart in the same spot but in IBJJF they stand you up--which is odd considering they don't restart you standing up if you go out of bounds during a regular scramble or positional change.

They typically will let you have the same grips and positions and restart you in the middle. But if it's a submission then the person with the sub attempt gets 2 points and they stand you up. If the person trapped in the submission flees the mat intentionally or in a manner not in line with the normal escape for that submission then they get DQ'd on the spot.

This issue caused a lot of controversy when Gui Mendes faces Samuel Braga for the Gold a few years back. Gui Mendes had a toe hold near the border, and Samuel Braga escaped/rolled for the back. It's hard to tell. But they gave Gui the 2 points and it cost Braga the match. Braga argued that he wasn't trying to escape the submission, just that he was trying to attack the back. Braga shoved Gui as Gui celebrated the win and was denied the Silver medal.

Denny looked awesome and I did think in this case AJ was stalling it out a bit. He usually pushes the pace so I was a little bit surprised by this.

[Mike Nall]

We know why there were questionable points. Can't have 10th planet bb's winning at ibjjf. They'd have to eat their words. They must maintain their cults order.

There were not questionable points. I wanted to see Denny win, and Denny had 2 very tight submissions locked up.

You can complain about the rules and the point system, but not the refs. They literally couldn't give less of a shit. They work long ass days for little money and barely have enough time to scarf down some lunch. They make mistakes sometimes, and even then, they didn't make any mistakes here.

I think the rules should be different, but the ref interpreted them and applied them basically to the letter. The ref didn't fuck anyone over, it was just shit luck that the guillotine happened so close to out of bounds.

That's another big problem with our sport. The out of bounds area is so huge. It should be a much thinner line.

[John Mejia]

All I'm saying is Denny was going for the kill and Aj seemed ok with winning by points. I find that kinda frustrating.

I agree with you, It's shitty, but a lot of those traditional guys are realllllllyyyy good at playing the rules. It happened to me in my finals match in the Chicago Open last month. the guy took me down, backed out of my guard and just stalled me out on the feet. Lots of guys are content winning by stalling and getting two points, 10th Planet guys are the opposite, if they didn't sub you they aren't happy with the win. It's all in the "Teams" Mindset.

[Mike Dewitt Jr]

There were not questionable points. I wanted to see Denny win, and Denny had 2 very tight submissions locked up.

You can complain about the rules and the point system, but not the refs. They literally couldn't give less of a shit. They work long ass days for little money and barely have enough time to scarf down some lunch. They make mistakes sometimes, and even then, they didn't make any mistakes here.

I think the rules should be different, but the ref interpreted them and applied them basically to the letter. The ref didn't fuck anyone over, it was just shit luck that the guillotine happened so close to out of bounds.

That's another big problem with our sport. The out of bounds area is so huge. It should be a much thinner line.

I think another thing to consider is I believe to have defended the shot, Denny would have to have made separation not just latch onto a front headlock.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

So i still have trouble understanding why anyone does IBJJF? Its because the perception is that the best talent is there, right?
Points look right to me but the rules are obviously flawed as far as determining a winner.

would a wrist lock attempt be low percentage from that jiu-claw like position? I like em because people get mad from tapping to wrist locks for some reason.

Frustrating loss but thanks for put yourself in a disadvantageous scenario (rule set) to rep 10th planet. Anyone who see the match will know who was the better guy on the mat

[Mike Nall]

So i still have trouble understanding why anyone does IBJJF? Its because the perception is that the best talent is there, right?
Points look right to me but the rules are obviously flawed as far as determining a winner.

would a wrist lock attempt be low percentage from that jiu-claw like position? I like em because people get mad from tapping to wrist locks for some reason.

Frustrating loss but thanks for put yourself in a disadvantageous scenario (rule set) to rep 10th planet. Anyone who see the match will know who was the better guy on the mat

I mean the best talent is there right now at least. There just needs to be an organization in the U.S. that can find a way to attract the bigger names. I think it will happen too. It's not like all these top IBJJF competitors just all love the organization. Abu Dhabi Pro Cup is a good competitor but it's overseas.

Like the reaping rules? Especially for no-gi? I don't think of any top competitors that aren't frustrated by that rule. For now you just have to be able to adapt. Watch people lile Rafa Mendes or Ryan Hall do IBJJF and they never reaps or does anything illegal but in ADCC they reap the leg hard and goes for all sorts of gnarly leglock positions.

There just needs to be another org.