Kids and heel hooks

[Chris Herzog]

Ok, maybe that's true. But my opinion is not based on the reality of heelhooks, it's based on the larger community's perception of heelhooks and how it looks when kids get injured from them at EBI. I see no advantage to having them in kids matches and I see significant risk to the reputation of the event.

Your opinions is clearly not based on the reality of heel hooks, most of the larger community's knowledge of leg locks are elementary at best. Your limited knowledge perception isn't relative.

Your comparison or a hyper extended elbow vs a acl tear is silly. You're talking about complete opposite ends of the spectrum to fight your argument. How about a distal bicep tendon tear (which can happen via an armbar) vs a acl tear. Both usually require surgery and and take about the same time to recover from.

There is zero evidence, other than ignorance, that show that upper body submissions are safer than lower body submission.

[Tony Toffolo]

Agree. Kids make poor life choices all the time, so I think it's just safer not to let them get in that situation until they're older.

i agree. i don't think it is appropriate to assume they are making fully informed decisions.

i think kids rules should include a larger margin of error for knowing when to tap (not as early as an adult would), subs only need to be locked in so far before a ref steps in.

i'm sure i'll get shit on for this but these are kids competing, not adults who are earning a living from competing or are training full time.

[Chris Herzog]

[Jeff Baldwin]

Agree. Kids make poor life choices all the time, so I think it's just safer not to let them get in that situation until they're older.

I'd also question the quality of aftercare at the event too - where were the first aiders?

Not really much you can do besides Ice it and compression wrap it. No need for a Paramedic to do that.

[Craig Murray]

Your opinions is clearly not based on the reality of heel hooks, most of the larger community's knowledge of leg locks are elementary at best. Your limited knowledge perception isn't relative.

Your comparison or a hyper extended elbow vs a acl tear is silly. You're talking about complete opposite ends of the spectrum to fight your argument. How about a distal bicep tendon tear (which can happen via an armbar) vs a acl tear. Both usually require surgery and and take about the same time to recover from.

There is zero evidence, other than ignorance, that show that upper body submissions are safer than lower body submission.

It's not about reality it's about the larger's community's perception, that's been my point the entire time. You said it yourself, the larger community's knowledge is elementary at best. So sure we could use this issue to try to start that debate and maybe educate people at the expense of the tournament's image, or we can remove the technique and solve any potential perception problems.

[Jeff Baldwin]

^^^^ This... It's obvious that Sophie hasn't trained with heel hooks very much if at all. You can "want" them all you want but if you don't train them, you're just not ready for them and you'll have no clue how to react.

It is true that most will not feel actual pain before the injury from a heel hook... but you will feel the pressure from the tendons tightening... some equate that to pain... some do not. Either way it's a warning sign that things are getting tight.

[Josh Yelverton]

I've seen more people injured from kimuras and armbars than I have from heel hooks. The injuries occurring from leg locks stem from lack of knowledge on both sides and in some cases a lack of respect. The joint layout for the the leg is the same as the arm. Ball joint, hinge joint, ball joint, from top to bottom. There's no pressures that can be put on the leg joints that can't be put on the corresponding joints in the arm. The main three things that separate them are shape, size, and placement. So maintaining ignorance of leglocks is quite literally the equivalent of ignoring armlocks. So even if we were to abolish leg locks in kids matches, they still need to be educated on them, just as they would be with an armbar and such. Tonon's post was on point.

[Chris Herzog]

It's not about reality it's about the larger's community's perception, that's been my point the entire time. You said it yourself, the larger community's knowledge is elementary at best. So sure we could use this issue to try to start that debate and maybe educate people at the expense of the tournament's image, or we can remove the technique and solve any potential perception problems.

Smh

[Mojoplata]

So sure we could use this issue to try to start that debate and maybe educate people at the expense of the tournament's image, or we can remove the technique and solve any potential perception problems.

Why be worried about how people perceive the event? EBI is the best Tournament, if people don't think so they're either wrong or have a different taste. Why try and change their mind?

[Craig Murray]

Why be worried about how people perceive the event? EBI is the best Tournament, if people don't think so they're either wrong or have a different taste. Why try and change their mind?

Because EBI is an entertainment product. The whole idea is to get Jiu Jitsu on TV. Perception matters. If you are an exec at SpikeTV or FoxSports1, injuries to children is certainly something you might be thinking about if you are considering picking up the promotion and airing it.

Your question was "why be worried about how people perceive the event?" The answer should be self-evident. Because you want as many people to watch it as possible. Because people's perceptions matter. Because no one wants to see little girls getting picked up and carried off the mat after getting their knees broken and they are unable to stand.

"the girl should have been properly educated on how to defend and tap to heel hooks" is a really shitty argument to give when SpikeTV is considering picking you up until they watch a child get her knee broken by another child.

It's all about perception. Not only does perception matter, with respect to the promotion of an entertainment product, perception IS reality.