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  1. #81
    sean applegate's Avatar
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    Refs can stop matches. They just need to do it more often, in my opinion. I have seen WAY too many injuries because a ref didn't call a match. In fact, the only person I hurt, in competition, all year was because of that. I even asked the ref if he could hear the guys foot and knee popping. The ref said "I do, but im not going to stop it". Then boom, his leg gives out and he has a completely unnecessary injury.

  2. #82
    Brent Smith's Avatar
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    I've been injured more by not tapping to a kimura quick enough than any heel hooks. If all thr superfight competitors were given the option before hand, Sophie and her coaches should have said something. Ignorance isn't a very good excuse when you've been informed.
    #10thplanetFREAKS

  3. #83
    Aaron Gustaveson's Avatar
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    Thats is exactly what they are for. Getting people off the mat in a safe and professional looking manner.

  4. #84

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    Heel hooks aside, the whole basis for the debate here was trying to avoid kids getting injured. It's the ref's job to protect both competitors and keep them safe. Their job is to prevent injury. That's the solution to this so called problem, not watering down our art by the refusal and abandonment of perfectly sound and legitimate techniques.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yelverton View Post
    Heel hooks aside, the whole basis for the debate here was trying to avoid kids getting injured. It's the ref's job to protect both competitors and keep them safe. Their job is to prevent injury. That's the solution to this so called problem, not watering down our art by the refusal and abandonment of perfectly sound and legitimate techniques.
    This ain't MMA my dude. It's the coach's responsibility to agree to a rule set that they believe their students are capable of handling. The ref is there to stop it once there's a tap or other administrative purpose like re-positioning or time outs. A jiu jitsu ref is not an MMA ref. A JJ ref is not responsible for preventing injury. To be frank, that's a ridiculous notion. Imagine how many matches would be stopped because an armbar or RNC looked deep. Nah bro. A JJ ref is there to stop the match when there's a tap or to enforce rules. The JJ ref is not there to protect the fighter. That is ridiculous.

  6. #86
    Jerry Walker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Herrera View Post
    To everyone who thinks a EBI should have a medic on site, they wouldn't be much help besides transporting the person to the hospital anyway. They are not doctors nor do they carry around an X Ray machine. I personally was injured in competition (dislocated hip) and the medic was useless. He drug me off the mat and tried to tell me all I had was a pulled groin.
    As a paramedic myself, that's pretty much true, when it comes to orthopaedic injury. And doctors are no different, btw. I can often tell you what is likely to be injured, based on experience, but (as I often tell patients), without an MRI, there's no real proof. Of course, this only applies to closed, soft-tissue injury of this kind; there are, of course, many other potential situations for use of a medic, transport being by far the smallest part of our job.
    Don't believe everything you think.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Rosado View Post
    The JJ ref is not there to protect the fighter. That is ridiculous.
    i think it is different story when you are dealing with kids

  8. #88

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    This is a combat sport. It is the ref's job to protect the fighter when they can no longer protect themselves. That being said, if a grown adult is dumb enough to allow themselves to get injured by not tapping when plenty of time was given, then I can honestly say that I don't feel pity for them. But a kid is a different case homie. Those medical bills aren't getting paid out of their pocket, and their bodies are still developing, so a major injury could potentially affect their growth. A ref in any combat sport is there to protect the fighter. Lots of people don't stop at the tap, they stop at the ref's interference. Forget about taps, if the ref doesn't step in, then injury could very well occur. Ref a match or get injured in a match and maybe your opinion will change.

  9. #89

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    I'm only a white belt so on the technical issues I will defer to the expertise of the more experienced here, but I have followed the art for a good while as I have a niece and nephew that have trained abs competed for a few years now so I will offer my humble opinion for what it's worth:

    I don't think that heel hooks are any more inherently dangerous than any other submission. They all have the capacity for serious injury. What made it dangerous in this particular case and what normally makes them dangerous for kids is the complete lack of familiarity that most kids have with that technique in both attacking, defending, and most importantly when it's time to tap. Since heel hooks are banned in practically every kids and teen competition, it's understandable that a 16 year old would have very little training in them. Riley had that training but it's apparent that Sophie did not.

    From what I understand, heel hooks were only allowed in the match if both fighters agreed to them. Since we are talking about kids, that responsibility falls on the coaches. If you are going to agree to them, then you have the responsibly to make sure your fighter is prepared to defend the technique and know when it's time to tap. Sophie clearly had neither and it's heart breaking to see such a talented young fighter so seriously injured in an exhibition match. I wish her a quick recovery.

    At any rate, I wonder if we will see anymore heel hooks in future EBI kids matches. I have really enjoyed the EBI tournaments and the superfights were often some of the best matches, but a kid having to be carried off the mat at the hands of another kid is not a good look.

  10. #90
    Casey Halstead's Avatar
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    At the end of the day, the responsibility is on the competitors. Let's not forget that in EBI we are showcasing professional athletes. These are not your run of the mill kids at a grapplers quest white belt division. All of these kids are sponsored by major companies and have excellent coaches that make well informed decisions based on knowledge of the sport and knowledge of the athletes abilities.

    As a father of a daughter that is 13 and has fought Muay Thai and competed in Jiu Jitsu tournaments I see that there are devastating injuries in all high school athletics. Soccer, tennis and cheer statistically have more injuries.

    To the point injuries are not fan friendly I agree. I felt terrible when Sophie got hurt. I was there I heard the pop. That doesn't mean we should ban them. Having an active life style has risks, to any competitor or practitioner the risk is worth the reward.

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