Kids and heel hooks

[VJ Bella]

Ill give my honest opinion here...i don't agree with kids doing heel hooks and those that know me and have rolled with me know that its one of my favorite submissions. I even teach my own kids heel hooks (and more importantly heel hook escapes) but they are only allowed to do them when rolling with me (except for Gabby obviously).

I have 2 reasons for this:

A.) The pain indicator for a heel hook is not like other submissions. With an arm bar, a shoulder lock etc. you can feel the pain right off the bat and know your breaking point. With a heel hook you do not immediately feel the pain, you feel tightness in the knee and a little pain and then pop...a lot of pain and its gone. So they may think they are ok...or feel some pain and think ahh I'm not going to tap to this and then bam...its gone.

B.) The second reason is I don't think kids are responsible enough to make the decision to tap or not when it comes to a major injury that a heel hook can cause (acl, mcl or meniscus tears are no joke...i've had them all). I don't know any kids that have a lot of experience with them and most have little to none. Its hard at that age to weigh winning and making everyone proud of you vs. tapping and losing. I'm sure none of them has actually ever experienced a ACL, MCL or Meniscus tear so they dont actually knows whats involved when it tears (the consequence of not tapping), the surgery, the pain, the after effects (I was never athletically the same after mine). It's a nightmare that still keeps me up some nights.

That being said I do not blame sophie, riley or EBI. If the coaches agreed then it is their responsibility to make sure their fighters are prepared for those submissions, how to escape and when to tap to those submissions. Also, I thought the production of the event was first class, the fighter are first class, everything about the event is first class...so can we get some damn medics to make this officially a first class event!! Dragging fighter offstage after injuries (Kim and Sophie) looks bad and its just a safer overall environment for the competitors.

[sean applegate]

There are a lot of people here, talking about heel hooks, who have no knowledge of how to apply them or what even makes them work, for that matter. The idea that a heel hook doesn't hurt prior to injury is pure ignorance. I can guarantee you of that. To ban heel hooks because people think they are dangerous is both hypocritical and, in the end, detrimental to our sport as a whole. Its time to embrace the growth and educate our community.

One more thing, if you think seeing a little girl get her arm completely ripped backwards is more visually acceptable than seeing a little girls foot get compressed, then you have serious mental health issues. A kimura is just as devastating as a heel hook. The injury is actually more miserable to recover from as well. Please allow the educated folks to inform the masses.

[Aiseop]

One easy solution to this all would be to do what many tournaments do with kids' matches. Once a joint-submission is "locked" have the ref call the match. The ref is the most educated person on the mat to know this. He'll tap for someone like Sophie, knowing the danger she's in. I mean, I've seen refs literally hover over the kids as one is about to finish an armbar and once that extension is set, grab both of them and call it. I've yet to see a kid or parent have a problem with this.

[sean applegate]

One easy solution to this all would be to do what many tournaments do with kids' matches. Once a joint-submission is "locked" have the ref call the match. The ref is the most educated person on the mat to know this. He'll tap for someone like Sophie, knowing the danger she's in. I mean, I've seen refs literally hover over the kids as one is about to finish an armbar and once that extension is set, grab both of them and call it. I've yet to see a kid or parent have a problem with this.

FINALLY! you just hit the nail on the head. A ref would never watch a kid get his arm pressed to the back of his head in a kimura, why allow a heel hook to continue to injury? Time for the refs to step up. Real talk.

[Craig Murray]

A kimura is just as devastating as a heel hook.

Except Kimuras have always been legal for kids and we've never had a problem. But the first time kids get to do heelhooks a girl is carried off the mat. Coincidence?

Why were heel hooks illegal in all previous kids matches?

[Jason Greer]

I talked to Riley earlier. She is fine. Little anklr sprain and in super positive spirits about the whole EBI experience

[Jason Greer]

Craig they are both Blue Belts. Not 8 years old bro. They know what they are doing

[VJ Bella]

There are a lot of people here, talking about heel hooks, who have no knowledge of how to apply them or what even makes them work, for that matter. The idea that a heel hook doesn't hurt prior to injury is pure ignorance. I can guarantee you of that. To ban heel hooks because people think they are dangerous is both hypocritical and, in the end, detrimental to our sport as a whole. Its time to embrace the growth and educate our community.

One more thing, if you think seeing a little girl get her arm completely ripped backwards is more visually acceptable than seeing a little girls foot get compressed, then you have serious mental health issues. A kimura is just as devastating as a heel hook. The injury is actually more miserable to recover from as well. Please allow the educated folks to inform the masses.

Its not ignorance...ive been doing them for 8+ years and have applied them hundreds if not thousands of times...and have probably tapped to over 500 of them. There is some pain buts its more of a tightness at first...the serious pain doesn't really come into play until right before its about to rip (I know because Ive torn my meniscus and ACL from this move)...don't appreciate being called ignorant or being told I don't know how to apply them because I don't share the same opinion as you. It will be 12 years of jiu jitsu for me in June...I know how to do a friggin heel hook as well as anyone and I know what it feels like to be in one and have my leg torn up by it.
As far as adults go I could care less...all subs should be legal as far as I'm concerned. I'm only against it for kids.

[Jeff Baldwin]

Let me ask you this: Why were heelhooks forbidden in previous kids fights?

I'm the wrong person to ask about that.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

It would be cool to see some type of medics at EBI6, if for no other reason than to make the event look even better.
I agree that there is little they can do for most situations but they could help get someone off the mats in a safe way, that looks pro.

Ref was great, maybe he should have stopped it, idk.

Whats with this feel pain dont feel pain talk? I dont really feel pain when I get armbarred, maybe just a little burn and a tight feeling, and Ive had it go too far before and hurt for over a week, it still didn't really hurt. Thats about exactly what I feel from heel hooks, never had one go a little too far thankfully. Im not familiar with the idea that pain should be what tells you when to tap out.I just use reason and my shitty knowledge of anatomy to make that decision. Then again I guess you might push things a bit farther in comp. I wouldn't, but other people might.