Kids and heel hooks

[Jeff Baldwin]

The reason EBI is a great event is because all submissions are allowed and there aren't any points.

Ultimately... as a Martial Art we need to ALL aspects of grappling... OFFENSE and DEFENSE.

As with all submissions the practitioners need to be taught responsibility.... if something pops on you it will not be because I had no concern for your well being it will be because your ego didn't allow you to tap in time.

"With great power comes great responsibility."

[Craig Murray]

The reason EBI is a great event is because all submissions are allowed and there aren't any points.

Ultimately... as a Martial Art we need to ALL aspects of grappling... OFFENSE and DEFENSE.

As with all submissions the practitioners need to be taught responsibility.... if something pops on you it will not be because I had no concern for your well being it will be because your ego didn't allow you to tap in time.

"With great power comes great responsibility."

A fine argument when you're talking about the adult tournament. The argument loses considerable strength when you are watching little girls get carried off the mat, unable to stand, to a technique that a very large portion of the larger BJJ community feels is dangerous. A technique in fact that was not allowed in previous EBI kids fights.

Let me ask you this: Why were heelhooks forbidden in previous kids fights?

[FrostyMc]

I mean, in fairness, if someone wants to be an asshole, they could just jerk and wrench a submission and you'd have no chance to tap before you got injured. That didn't happen in this case, but just sayin, it takes 2 to tango. My job is to give you time to tap, your job is to tap. Not that I'd ever tap a black belt, but you know what I mean.

[FrostyMc]

A fine argument when you're talking about the adult tournament. The argument loses considerable strength when you are watching little girls get carried off the mat, unable to stand, to a technique that a very large portion of the larger BJJ community feels is dangerous.

Just want to say, this is argumentum ad populum. A very large portion of the bjj community think 10th planet is shit. That means nothing, doesn't make them right.

[Craig Murray]

Just want to say, this is argumentum ad populum. A very large portion of the bjj community think 10th planet is shit. That means nothing, doesn't make them right.

It's not about being right. Ad Populum is EXACTLY the point. This isn't about being right it's about the promotion of an entertainment product.

[William Schrimsher]

Since 10p will receive criticism regardless of action, why not just be right and let the chips fall where they may, rather than conceding to those who are wrong for the sake of perception?

[Craig Murray]

Since 10p will receive criticism regardless of action, why not just be right and let the chips fall where they may, rather than conceding to those who are wrong for the sake of perception?

It's not conceding to those who are wrong, it's about creating the most marketable JJ tournament possible. Girls getting carried off the mat is counter-productive to that goal.

Why were heelhooks illegal in previous kids fights?

[Tim Bruhn]

Because EBI is an entertainment product. The whole idea is to get Jiu Jitsu on TV. Perception matters. If you are an exec at SpikeTV or FoxSports1, injuries to children is certainly something you might be thinking about if you are considering picking up the promotion and airing it.

Your question was "why be worried about how people perceive the event?" The answer should be self-evident. Because you want as many people to watch it as possible. Because people's perceptions matter. Because no one wants to see little girls getting picked up and carried off the mat after getting their knees broken and they are unable to stand.

"the girl should have been properly educated on how to defend and tap to heel hooks" is a really shitty argument to give when SpikeTV is considering picking you up until they watch a child get her knee broken by another child.

It's all about perception. Not only does perception matter, with respect to the promotion of an entertainment product, perception IS reality.

Sadly I agree. Nothing to do with the 'should they, should they not be legal' for BJJ's sake, but for Eddies vision of getting this on TV injuries to kids are not a good look.

But then, should kids not be competeing at all? A kid getting their arm broken or put to sleep is going to be a pretty horrible look too.

I guess when I think from a getting it on TV perspective there has to be no kids matches. Sad.

[Craig Murray]

A kid getting their arm broken or put to sleep is going to be a pretty horrible look too.

It's not ideal but I don't think it's nearly as bad. If a kid goes to sleep, they wake back up and can stand there for the hand raising, and they walk off the stage, clearly fine. Armbars too, it might look kinda bad when it hyperextends, and the kid might be nursing their arm, but they still stay on the mat for the hand-raising and then they walk off it.

It's not ideal, but to me it LOOKS much less serious. There is also huge promotional value to the kids fights. They are extremely entertaining and compelling. Many people think they are their favorite in each event. So there is value on that side of the equation.

To me it's about balancing those risks and rewards. Kids fights are a huge value for the promotion. They are an inherent risk. Eddie and Co's job is to balance those risks and rewards.

To me, heelhooks are a big risk with little to no reward. Kid fights are a huge reward.

[Tim Bruhn]

I disagree.

Seeing a kid get put to sleep would look a lot worse in my opinion. Not everyone lays there all calm and peaceful. Can look pretty ugly, is it as serious as a knee injury though no.

Suppose I'd just never considered how it would look if a kid got injured till now. To knowledgeable people it's part of the game, but again, if it's trying to be on TV and anyone can flick the channel and come across it, kids 'inflicting' injuries on other kids would be a deal breaker for a network I'd think.

Just my opinion. As I said, I'd never thought about till EBI5.