EBI 10 - Questions

[Alexander N]

The picture clearly shows Geo got free, end of story. Whatever entangling happened after while he's waving his hands in celebration is totally irrelevant. Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot.

[Keith D]

The picture clearly shows Geo got free, end of story. Whatever entangling happened after while he's waving his hands in celebration is totally irrelevant. Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot.

The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.. That is NOT Geo "clearly getting free"... When the match was stopped Eddie had Geos leg FULLY entangled.. It would be one thing if he stopped where the picture is, but he was deep on Geo's leg... "Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot"... Not necessarily, I am simply questioning some of the finer points of the rules.. In fact Eddie (Bravo) himself has specifically said that if Eddie (Cummings) - specifically used him as an example - transfers to a leg lock the match the match continues... The first time in OT it happens, and the match ends? In my opinion, if you're going to implement a rule set based on escapes, you should have to escape to a relatively safe position... Not just losing upper body control, and winning even though your leg is still in danger... Let's ask this question (And I hope anyone feels free to answer because its another genuine question), If someone takes the back in OT, and the person escapes to guard, but as the person is getting to guard the person (now on bottom) throws up a triangle, but doesn't fully lock it in right away? Does the match end or keep going?

[Martin Harris]

Keith - In my opinion if a single moment of full escape exists it is over. Honestly it was close to a good transition but not quite. Geo could have been caught slipping if Eddie had started the leg entanglement while he still had control of the arm. But that did not happen... Geo clearly freed him self of any submission attempt before Eddie entangled the legs. Having the leg overhooked by itself is nothing.

[Chris Herzog]

Well you see my confusion came from the fact the Eddie Cummings is still controlling his leg.. AS Geo is in the process of escaping, and AS Eddie Cummings is in the process of transferring to this leg lock attempt, and yes it wouldve been an attempt had the match been allowed to continue. Your picture demonstrates that perfectly, and the fact that Eddie Cummings had Geo's leg FULLY entangled, shortly after this picture, doesn't help the confusion. I wasn't aware any submission attempts had be in deadzones (even though I didn't realize the Crucifix was considered a "DeadZone"), I was under the impression that if you were going for a sub, doesn't matter which one, that match continued... In fact, if I remember correctly, this was brought up at an EBI rules meeting, I saw a video of, where Eddie Cummings was actually used as an example, saying that if he transferred to a leg lock the match would continue... Also doesn't help with the confusion.

No he does NOT have the Leg fully controlled.

[Chris Herzog]

The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.. That is NOT Geo "clearly getting free"... When the match was stopped Eddie had Geos leg FULLY entangled.. It would be one thing if he stopped where the picture is, but he was deep on Geo's leg... "Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot"... Not necessarily, I am simply questioning some of the finer points of the rules.. In fact Eddie (Bravo) himself has specifically said that if Eddie (Cummings) - specifically used him as an example - transfers to a leg lock the match the match continues... The first time in OT it happens, and the match ends? In my opinion, if you're going to implement a rule set based on escapes, you should have to escape to a relatively safe position... Not just losing upper body control, and winning even though your leg is still in danger... Let's ask this question (And I hope anyone feels free to answer because its another genuine question), If someone takes the back in OT, and the person escapes to guard, but as the person is getting to guard the person (now on bottom) throws up a triangle, but doesn't fully lock it in right away? Does the match end or keep going?

you cleary don't understand what control means, he was not in a full position of control when the match was called.

[Chris Herzog]

at the 1:33 mark is a good example of a transition to that should be kept going as there is immediate CONTROL and and am immediate threat for the finish.

[JorgenBore]

The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.. That is NOT Geo "clearly getting free"... When the match was stopped Eddie had Geos leg FULLY entangled.. It would be one thing if he stopped where the picture is, but he was deep on Geo's leg... "Your argument seems to stem from your notion that Eddie Cummings is dangerous from there as it is likely he'll be able to get to a controlling and finishing position shortly after- it'd be a ridiculous ruleset that governs based on particular individual's perceived likelihood to get to a match finish from whatever spot"... Not necessarily, I am simply questioning some of the finer points of the rules.. In fact Eddie (Bravo) himself has specifically said that if Eddie (Cummings) - specifically used him as an example - transfers to a leg lock the match the match continues... The first time in OT it happens, and the match ends? In my opinion, if you're going to implement a rule set based on escapes, you should have to escape to a relatively safe position... Not just losing upper body control, and winning even though your leg is still in danger... Let's ask this question (And I hope anyone feels free to answer because its another genuine question), If someone takes the back in OT, and the person escapes to guard, but as the person is getting to guard the person (now on bottom) throws up a triangle, but doesn't fully lock it in right away? Does the match end or keep going?

I feel that the following point that you made yourself, answers this. "The picture shows that while yes Eddie Cummings lost upper body control, he still had control of the leg and transferred almost immediately to a leg entanglement, that could have very well led to a submission attempt.."

They can't ref the overtime on what could possibly happen. He was out of the immediate threat. I feel it's like if you spin in to someones full guard, and they set up rubber guard. You might get submitted there if the guy is good, but it's not an immediate threat like the back/spiderweb/crucifix/honeyhole/etc.

[Chris Herzog]

Not mention it wasn't an transition form deadzone to deadzone. Geo stacked him and completely escaped the armbar then stood up, thats when Cummings made a grab from the legs.

[Keith D]

at the 1:33 mark is a good example of a transition to that should be kept going as there is immediate CONTROL and and am immediate threat for the finish.

Thanks for sharing that video with me man, also in response to a previous post, I do understand what control means, and there was a point where to me it looked like he had control of his leg.. Let me ask you, would that transition you showed me be allowed in EBI overtime? leg.jpg

[Chris Herzog]

Thanks for sharing that video with me man, also in response to a previous post, I do understand what control means, and there was a point where to me it looked like he had control of his leg.. Let me ask you, would that transition you showed me be allowed in EBI overtime? leg.jpg

Watch the EBI match again. The match was clearly called after the armbar escape, Eddie continued transitionin as it was called. In the video I showed was a EBI ot at a ISOF event. They difference was that Joey was immediately in on a heel hook from ashi, not trying to scramble for control.