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Alright my friends the Kimura Sandwich wasn't in depth enough, but my brain couldn't let it go.
Here is the NEW video based on the move that ties right into the system.
Kimura-Kimura Sandwich-Extra Delicious-Knee Bar on Top-Sloppy Taco- Vaporizer
Thoughts?
http://youtu.be/E7_GfEuV2K4
No need for a toy after that meal ;)
Why do I feel like you're having way too much fun with the naming process?
Very cool. Can't wait to try this.
Im curious if you have actually done these moves to anybody in a live situation? Most everybody who is posting videos has been able to implement their techniquesat least in live sparring, take Big Red he has proven technique through ADCC qualifiers. Brian Debes has video of him submitting people on his way to being the number 1 ranked NAGA nogi competitor.
i dont see it working sorry. you say that when you are leaning back after getting the kimura sandwich hold that if he kicks his leg out you can stop leaning back and then swing your leg over into mount and get him with the kimura before he is ready to defend again? i can see an absolute beginner get caught in this possibly but i dont see a how it would work against most guys.
secondly, the size difference has to play a roll, if youre rolling with someone in your own weight class, i dont see how one arm with a loose looking grip can control a leg. even adding in the fact youre leaning back and therefore using your back muscles. thats one hell of a fight right there. especially when he is already going to be trying to go the other way to defend the kimura.
and then you had side mount but you give side mount with a submission attempt up for top half?
i also think that your kneebar allows for a pretty easy kick over which could put your opponent into a bad north south position with you on the bottum. all he has to do is swim move and kick his leg out and it at least causes a scramble and means you almost definitely lose the sub. thats why i always try controlling the other leg as well.
i want to see cool stuff like this be able to work but atm at least until legit comp vids are put up, im gunna stay very sceptical here.
good luck with it all.
You silly cunts, just try it.
I never said it was going to win you NAGA. Don't be so closed minded as to disregard it completely. Give it a few reps. I have got 2 taps using the kimura sandwich in practice. This hasn't been attempted in competition because it was just developed this week.
Jiu jitsu has infinite moves and holds and combinations. This is just a branch of a branch of a branch that leads back to a larger branch called the Vaporizer.
Yes, we have fun with the names too.
"I don't see it working sorry." <---That's not the best approach to learning jiu jitsu.
I think that you should instead take all the access to information you can and implement into your game what works for you.
submitting people with moves called "extra delicious" and "sloppy taco" sounds awfully scrumptious
I don't know if I'd be strong enough to pin their arm behind their back with just one of mine but I want to try these out just for the novelty of it hahaha
Thats what I mean, these other videos have been tested and proven. You are trying to create a series off of something you have done twice successfully. Whether it will be the next berimbolo I dont know, but you need to have landed this more on resisting opponents before you make up flows that may or may not be available to create a video series around.
Whether or not it works, I'm gonna try it. If it fails for me on multiple occasions that's when I may discard it. But there are some principles in this that I do like. It does seem excessive in some parts but, fuck it. I'll run it til it fails.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Wallner
bad example of how posting a technique should be done. sorry man, get your reps, and report back.
Interesting path into the vaporizer. I don't know about it but I guess we'll see.
Duh, isn't that what getting better and learning is all about?? Instead of just totally disregarding it by watching a video, try it a bunch of times then disregard it if it doesn't work for you. Obviously it transitions into something that is super legitimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mejia
Why not try it and make a video about how to shut it down instead of being closed minded? It's not religion, you're not trapped into a strict system that insists on rules under the threat of eternal hellfire.
Try getting creative and having an original thought. You're not a machine...yet.
For sure, but there's definitely some wacky ass shit I'm definitely not doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Wallner
I'm gonna pretend like your making a joke, and that you take your real techniques seriously???
Looks like this would only work for a big strong guy. I want jiu jitsu that works on everyone bc I'm always the smallest and weakest..why waste time if its not gonna work on big guys too..? Sorry dude. I only want high percentage finishes in my game. You fight how you train so I can't waste any time especially if you haven't hit this in a tournament...
I know you are not seriously suggesting someone put serious time and effort into a technique or a series of transitions that you've only successful executed on a training partner twice, then criticizing those that are critiquing that technique by calling them close minded, after you asked others "thoughts" on this series. That's called critical thinking, not closed mindedness. Why would anyone invest serious time or commitment into a technique that you haven't done yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Wallner
Generally, as in almost every time someone posts a video here, it is a "go to technique" that they constantly hit in training (or competition), not just 2 times. Why post a video on how to shut it down when you have put 2 more reps into than everyone else has? A technique will merit an escape once investigation and development has been filter through the vetting process.
Generally strategy to vetting "new" techniques and transitions should follow the process of:
1)Works against compliant training partners
2)Works against moderating resistant training partners (drills)
3)Works against fully resistant training partners (rolling)
4)Works against fully resistant skilled & stronger/larger opponents (rolling or competing)
5)All of the above consistently
Then post a video on it.
I take your word that you "can" hit it in training. I think everyone would. Seriously hit that shit all the time, address the counters/problems that are "actually" presented, not theoretical problems. Own that shit, for months, not days, then people will take serious consideration of the technique you posted, not the other way around.
I am seriously suggesting you should take a few minutes to try any move that you think could have potential. This might not work for 9 out of 10 guys, but it can click with one. This isn't a go-to technique of mine, I never said it was. It makes way more sense for me to post a video of a new move and see it grow from there.
Because, why not?
You can have your vetting process. I'll take every bit of jiu jitsu information I can and vet it myself on the mats.
Anything less than that to me is closed minded and that doesn't help with anything.
I would never say something doesn't work just by seeing one video.
I guess thats the difference is we want to see moves that are proven not ones made up on the fly. It doesnt mean any one is closed minded, it just means we dont just automatically accept anything someone posts. We want proof that its plausible. We tried it at Superhero tonight and anyone close to your own size was able to roll their wrist out of your "penguin grip". Then when the leg was grabbed and began leaning back the opponent put his hand on his stomach, not to mention the fact that crossing the feet defeated the lean back. Also, the bottom guy grabbing the hip didnt stop anything as far as knee sliding into mount or stepping around the head to finish the regular kimura. It was also difficult to maintain top position, keep the bottom mans hand on the mat and elevate the majority of the bottom mans body off the ground all at the same time with any resistance.
How cool would it be if all that panned out into legitimacy? It looks too difficult to keep that far wrist under control but I'm always rooting for more new material :)
almost all of the moves here are based on certain principles. second order jiu jitsu if u want. things like clinch of controlling posture, speed, limb control etc. there is a reason why someone wants to move from full guard to mount etc. maybe this will eventually work out, and hey im fine with standing there saying shit i was wrong. but it seems like this series gives up way too much of these principles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Wallner
as far as legitimacy goes, who did you catch it on? element of surprise added in, level of belt etc, how easy was it to get on these guys? i can see massive wholes with it by just watching it. holes which havnt been answered yet. i could post a video of doing a head on belly 720 spin to vulcan death grip but i doubt anyone would try it if they find a bunch of problems with it that i cant back up.
when you first posted the kimura sandwich, questions were raised about how to do it and instead of answerng any of them, youve added more crasy stuff that seem to have holes in them as well.
and the problem with this is. it can damage the legitimacy of 10th planet. youre a brown belt and your posting up these cool new moves, and a bunch of the new white belts that have come to see what 10th planet is about will be trying it out, and low and behold even black belts are having difficulty with it, and then before you know it. the vapouriser is shit because you can never hit it from there and every one is back to saying 10th planet is that crazy stuff but it doesnt actually work. its not good for any of us.
its not about having an open mind or not, its about spending our time on things that work so we can improve the quality of our moves instead of the quantity.
Every move has a counter. I don't see anything wrong with trying out new things to get your synapes firing. If I hadn't been willing to try new things, I would still be an over under guard passer instead of a leg drag/ double under to leg drag/ achilles leg lock to leg drag/ annanais/ catcher stance/ crazy combo passer. Now I may not be the greatest passer on the planet, but I usually give my opponent a lot to fight against if I am in his guard. I think it is ultimately good for Jiu Jitsu for people to try new things and share them. Even if this particular series doesn't pan out, it could inspire someone to think differently about this position and form their next A game attack. And I don't think this damages the legitimacy of 10th Planet. I think the reason Eddie grapple fucked Royler at their last meeting is because he and his guys decided to think differently a long time ago and come up with new answers to the same old problems. That and I am sure he trained his ass off. While I think the critiques here are legit, I don't see anything wrong with bouncing new ideas off of your peers as a black belt, brown belt, purple belt, blue belt, white belt, etc. Just because there are holes now, doesn't mean someone here couldn't find ways to patch them.
Let's see dead zone drills on video starting with the one handed wrist control
This guy just pretty much smashed this whole conversation. PORRA!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Watkins
However, everyone of those things you mentioned has by drilled, used in rolling and in competition. It wasn't created on Monday and then you decided to expand your game and try it out the next day. The techniques you opened up and started using were all ready tested and validated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Watkins
im gonna try to add it to my kimura game as well john. im gonna be know for my kimura as well as you are for your darce lol
Anyone tried this yet? Im interested to hear since I cant try it myself at the moment. That wrist control seems impossible to hold against skilled guys and if you have kimura trap game theres a lot of higher % stuff to do but Im hoping it pans out as an option. Someone update :)
DrewQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dewitt Jr
Oops, missed that somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dewitt Jr
Yep. Thanks:)
He is right, you should trial and error it first before disgarding it.
It may work for some, may not for others, some may do it right some may miss some small details.
Fair props for messing around with new techniques and sharing them, Whether they good or bad doesn't matter, only the strongest one's will stand the test of time and overall will make the system stronger.
Sure didn't everyone discard the rubber guard in the beginning?
Much love from Ireland
You are completely missing the point. No one is dismissing the technique. What we are saying is put the time in on it, work out the details against live resistant skilled human beings. Then come back an share the technique with the backing of having the experience of success using it live consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by fightingfitksa
Your compairison of Eddie/Rubber Guard is way off base. Eddie was smashing people for years, had a system in place that was based on experience. That experience guided him through the development of the RG. Every escape and counter developed into a new path because it actually happened, that weren't perceived problems areas, they were actual problems. Your analogy couldn't be more supportive of our argument.
Eddie didn't grab his ankle on Monday and start teaching Rubber Guard on Tuesday, he tested it, failed, improved upon it over a period of time. This is exactly what we are referring too.
It's funny that whenever a move is said to have huge holes in it, the people that are critiquing it are called "closed minded" or told "just try it. How do you know it doesn't work if you haven't tried it".
Herzog has 30 plus years of martial arts training. With that kind of experience, I trust he knows what he's talking about. The moves that get trashed or are thrown out quickly are typically moves that haven't been tested or haven't gotten the kinks worked out. IE the Puppet Master, Tangled Up Control, or The Master Lock Series. There may be some gold nuggets in new things but if they're not tested, how are you to differentiate between the real gold and the fools gold?
Brent Smith, that was well thought out and articulated. Therefore, we are all going to completely ignore your completely rational and practical mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Smith
Fair enough hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Ross Davidson
That is true. Everything I mentioned was tested and validated. But I didn't mention or describe any of my truly original moves because I am a dick and don't want to share any of them and keep them my close personal secrets. Haha. But back to the point..... I have also played jazz getting out of peculiar positions in tournaments or trying to figure out ways to catch an opponent in tournament. Some of these ideas actually have immediately become a part of my game and I didn't have to drill them at all later they just showed up in different rolls but they were simple variations to moves I already used too. I didn't say you should definitely add this or any other technique to your game especially if it doesn't work for you. What I am saying is that I think it is cool to bounce ideas off of your peers and it is also cool and gutsy to share something new online because online feedback is almost always harsh and it takes a certain amount of mental fortitude to deal with heavy criticism. And I also think one of the cornerstones of getting better is trying new things or hitting old moves from new positions because if you do find one that works and people haven't seen it done before, you have both the element of surprise and the fact that it works on your side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
But what if someone on here sees a technique with holes and has the answer on how to improve the technique and plug the holes but they would have never thought of the improvement if they hadn't seen the idea posted in the first place? This may not be the case for this technique, but in theory I could see something like this happening. I mean wouldn't that be a loss for Jiu Jitsu if a cool new move never came to fruition because one guy couldn't perfect it on his own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Then it shouldn't be presented as an instructional, it should be presented in a clear manner that states its not an instructional the technique is in the experimental stages of development. Having names and flows/paths for techniques leaves little doubt that it was an instructional video.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Watkins
Touche. I can defintely Hespect that for sure. :)
*definitely....damn it! I need to spell better.
They've been doing it all in Brazil since 1864Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog