de La Riva Guard for No-Gi

Once you get the boot, its like puttin a broomstick in the spokes of a bike. He cant turn into you and im prepared for him to turn away. If he stays still I climb.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Chris, I 1,000% believe that a strictly nogi guy can effectively learn and execute an effective dlr. Mike is right and you eluded to it as well. Its about improving position. How is sweeping or taking the back not optimal for sub only? I swear to you Ive never trained to get a point in my life and never will.(I am mindful of them tho)

Mike, you'll never get shit from me man. You know your shit. Dlr has more controling options in gi, yes. But I only play it like that if im tired even in gi. My main objective is to get my outside leg across his far hip and put a boot on while constantly climbing his body like I just kicked a grizzly bear in the nuts. Once i get the boot Im either inverting or grabbing the far ankle or hip or both. I NEVER let go of both hands at the same time. If you do that the grizzly gets you and you both fall into lava.

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I still like going across to the far hip. I didn’t realize this until I trained with Rafa and Gui but there are two basic ways to play DLR. One is going to the far hip and the other is just keeping the back of your DLR hook foot on their quad. So literally the reverse DLR is that on the inside.

The Mendes bros were pretty adamant about not extending the leg to the far hip as they think it invites the backstep pass. I don’t know that I agree and I play DLR both ways. Just because they say it doesn’t make it gospel. Marcelo has opinions I disagree with too. We have to figure it out ourselves ya know?

Yes. I heard him say that too, so I stopped for a sec. My results went waaay down. Im with you man, maybe I can make it work. Everybody gave me shit bout 10p as well. Now dey all up on my nuts.

However, I keep instructors like Rafa and Marcelo's words in the back of my head at all times. There have been plenty of times when it takes me 2 years to look back and say, "Ooooh, thats why!"

Im looking to catch the backstep with my heel control hand as well. If I miss right back to the heel. If he clears the hook, spiral. Im on my shoulder and side of my face most of the time and my hips are off the ground. Mobility.

Im jackin this thread till I get a money shot:)

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Originally Posted by Craig Feldman

I learned DLR technique last week at Marcelo's....I liked it and have hit this live it is quick transition to the back. You're in DLR with control of your opponents close wrist... Most people will try to step back to try to pass. When they step back take your free leg and insert the foot behind the close knee. Pulling you to his back. Then kick your legs foward and your opponent will fall....now you have their back. It worked effectively live yesterday and today in live matches.

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This is the only DLR move I use, my old sambo instructor showed it to me.

When I trained in a gi I was very good at DLR, but when I switched to no-gi I was lighter then everyone and my grips werent strong enough to maintain the wrist control and my opponents would fall for kneebars and toeholds on me.

Im sure if you put lots of time into it that it will be effective nogi.

But I think in terms of being time/cost effective it isnt great for lower belts, like if you put 10 hours into standing up for single legs you would hit those at a higher rate then if you spent the same amount of time on DLR. It isnt something I will spend time developing for a while, I usually go for single legs, 1 leg x-guard when people are standing above me like that.

But there are some real legit sweeps and subs that can be locked up from there.

This was also how I fell in love with Dlr. Zog showed it to us, so the sambo connection makes sense.

I can't stress enough that just because you cant control his wrist and there is no lapel, doesn't mean there is no control and you should abandon. If he keeps his hands up, hit the body, when he drops his hands, hit the chin. Same principle. Something is open.

Man what a fantastic discussion. Nobody getting angry. Everybody stating their opinion. Thats how 10 do

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

Man what a fantastic discussion. Nobody getting angry. Everybody stating their opinion. Thats how 10 do

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Fully agree, as someone playing with a tonne of this stuff, its fantastic discussion and includes plenty of info and perspective that I can absorb from you guys :)

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Originally Posted by VJ Bella

I almost got eaten by a real shark snorkeling in key West yesterday!! Too soon Bobby!!

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Forget that. You won't catch me snorkelling in a sharks kitchen. Thank God for fresh water lakes!

Getting angry about jiu jitsu is more for the gi I feel.

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Originally Posted by Chris Garry

Getting angry about jiu jitsu is more for the gi I feel.

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The Gi is like a cult in some cases.

I think this thread has turned into one of my favorite threads on the internet. I have no idea what DLR guard even looks like, but after reading all the intricacies in Bobbys posts (and the rest of the contributors) I will have to spend some time looking at some DLR-for-noobs videos when I have a chance.

That can often be a bit of a sticking point when discussing these type of positions, a lot of it looks alike and certain phases of attack fit into both guard types. I think the way Eddie organises it all helps us immensely- there is clear paths and guides showing us the meathook belongs to both rubber guard and pyramid for instance.

Until this thread Tbh I had no idea all the stuff being done without wrist control was considered DLR.

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Originally Posted by Chris Garry

Getting angry about jiu jitsu is more for the gi I feel.

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Blasphemy.

Clothing gives you the option to grab it, when it is not there you need other options. If you're stuck in a pit and you have a ladder, then your good. Shits easy and you're out in no time. But what if all you have is a pole? Stay in the pit? Fuck that. Its gonna be more difficult, and technical, but you're gonna get out of that pit. Then it becomes easy to scale the pole. Even efficient and graceful. Just look at strippers.

So there is my pro-nogi Dlr platform. Strippers. The mat is your stage, and their lead leg is your stripper pole. Make that money.

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

The Gi is like a cult in some cases.

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I don’t want to take away from this awesome thread, but I really don’t understand this. This is a false dichotomy. There are gi vs. no-gi debates, but they exist entirely on the internet. No one training hard in jiu-jitsu in 2013 is having these discussions. They’re archaic and largely brought up by white belts or newer grapplers, and you’ll see people that have trained longer re-enter the debates with the same arguments and positions.

The majority of the modern grappling world does both and they don't have the time nor energy to debate which is better. Even the competitive season is arranged for the first half of the year to be gi season, and the 2nd half of the year is no-gi season. All of the top level gyms train both. I can think of a very very small number of athletes that only participate in gi or no-gi at purple, brown, and black. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do one or the other. I’m saying that there aren’t these gi gyms out there that rally against no-gi. I can’t think of any major team that doesn’t embrace intense no-gi training (Alliance, Atos, Gracie Barra, Checkmat, Nova Uniao, the list is endless).

No-gi is a major part of modern grappling, and I promise you that everyone serious about jiu-jitsu knows this.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Blasphemy.

Clothing gives you the option to grab it, when it is not there you need other options. If you're stuck in a pit and you have a ladder, then your good. Shits easy and you're out in no time. But what if all you have is a pole? Stay in the pit? Fuck that. Its gonna be more difficult, and technical, but you're gonna get out of that pit. Then it becomes easy to scale the pole. Even efficient and graceful. Just look at strippers.

So there is my pro-nogi Dlr platform. Strippers. The mat is your stage, and their lead leg is your stripper pole. Make that money.

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Jean Jacques analogy- the mat is his ocean and he is a shark and most can't even swim.

Bobby River-Strippers and the climbing the poll. Each respectively profound in their own way. Ka-Boom.

I haven't used a stripper pole yet to work my de la riva guard but I have gone spiral guard on a leg of a bench at my house

Sometimes you just got to invert!

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Blasphemy.

Clothing gives you the option to grab it, when it is not there you need other options. If you're stuck in a pit and you have a ladder, then your good. Shits easy and you're out in no time. But what if all you have is a pole? Stay in the pit? Fuck that. Its gonna be more difficult, and technical, but you're gonna get out of that pit. Then it becomes easy to scale the pole. Even efficient and graceful. Just look at strippers.

So there is my pro-nogi Dlr platform. Strippers. The mat is your stage, and their lead leg is your stripper pole. Make that money.

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Lmao this thread continues to win

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I don’t want to take away from this awesome thread, but I really don’t understand this. This is a false dichotomy. There are gi vs. no-gi debates, but they exist entirely on the internet. No one training hard in jiu-jitsu in 2013 is having these discussions. They’re archaic and largely brought up by white belts or newer grapplers, and you’ll see people that have trained longer re-enter the debates with the same arguments and positions.

The majority of the modern grappling world does both and they don't have the time nor energy to debate which is better. Even the competitive season is arranged for the first half of the year to be gi season, and the 2nd half of the year is no-gi season. All of the top level gyms train both. I can think of a very very small number of athletes that only participate in gi or no-gi at purple, brown, and black. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do one or the other. I’m saying that there aren’t these gi gyms out there that rally against no-gi. I can’t think of any major team that doesn’t embrace intense no-gi training (Alliance, Atos, Gracie Barra, Checkmat, Nova Uniao, the list is endless).

No-gi is a major part of modern grappling, and I promise you that everyone serious about jiu-jitsu knows this.

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Guys dont take this post as a lecture, but as truth. Fact is that MOST, not ALL, of the guys who can crush you without breaking a sweat do both and do it well. Pressure, control, and passing will always work.

I have seen what they are talkin about tho. In smaller, slightly non-competitive gyms. They refuse to roll me nogi. They even show up to nogi open mat with their gi on. Now as Mike said it a nonissue for me. Eddie gave me my fundamentals and im good. I feel fortunate.

The gi to me was like goin to another county that speaks a foriegn language. You might as well learn what you can while you're there to make things easier. But when you leave, you never regret learning another language. It only enhances your ability to communicate.

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Originally Posted by Liquidrob

I haven't used a stripper pole yet to work my de la riva guard but I have gone spiral guard on a leg of a bench at my house

Sometimes you just got to invert!

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You get it:)

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

You get it:)

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The wife still gives me that "WTF are you doing?" look, but she knows the deal after all these years

My daughter enjoys it though

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I don’t want to take away from this awesome thread, but I really don’t understand this. This is a false dichotomy. There are gi vs. no-gi debates, but they exist entirely on the internet. No one training hard in jiu-jitsu in 2013 is having these discussions. They’re archaic and largely brought up by white belts or newer grapplers, and you’ll see people that have trained longer re-enter the debates with the same arguments and positions.

The majority of the modern grappling world does both and they don't have the time nor energy to debate which is better. Even the competitive season is arranged for the first half of the year to be gi season, and the 2nd half of the year is no-gi season. All of the top level gyms train both. I can think of a very very small number of athletes that only participate in gi or no-gi at purple, brown, and black. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do one or the other. I’m saying that there aren’t these gi gyms out there that rally against no-gi. I can’t think of any major team that doesn’t embrace intense no-gi training (Alliance, Atos, Gracie Barra, Checkmat, Nova Uniao, the list is endless).

No-gi is a major part of modern grappling, and I promise you that everyone serious about jiu-jitsu knows this.

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Bro don't misunderstand: I have no issues with the Gi.
That being said, you CAN NOT deny that there are Gi players out there who look at NoGi as if it's the anti-christ.

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Originally Posted by Kurzy

Bro don't misunderstand: I have no issues with the Gi.
That being said, you CAN NOT deny that there are Gi players out there who look at NoGi as if it's the anti-christ.

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There really are.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I don’t want to take away from this awesome thread, but I really don’t understand this. This is a false dichotomy. There are gi vs. no-gi debates, but they exist entirely on the internet. No one training hard in jiu-jitsu in 2013 is having these discussions. They’re archaic and largely brought up by white belts or newer grapplers, and you’ll see people that have trained longer re-enter the debates with the same arguments and positions.

The majority of the modern grappling world does both and they don't have the time nor energy to debate which is better. Even the competitive season is arranged for the first half of the year to be gi season, and the 2nd half of the year is no-gi season. All of the top level gyms train both. I can think of a very very small number of athletes that only participate in gi or no-gi at purple, brown, and black. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do one or the other. I’m saying that there aren’t these gi gyms out there that rally against no-gi. I can’t think of any major team that doesn’t embrace intense no-gi training (Alliance, Atos, Gracie Barra, Checkmat, Nova Uniao, the list is endless).

No-gi is a major part of modern grappling, and I promise you that everyone serious about jiu-jitsu knows this.

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I still have non competitive black belts telling me "you have to wear the gi to be good at no gi." Not as archaic as you would think. Otherwise all these gi school would have half and half. Not to deviate from the dlr discussion but I was also told "There's no point in having a no gi class. No gi guys can't afford Jiu Jitsu"

Bobby, when you say you're putting the boot on, is it your DLR hook or your free leg that's controlling that far leg. Sounds like there's some fine details I need to work on.

Its the outside leg. I don't have a free leg, because to me that means that it doesn't have a job. The inside leg is going to have to be just as active to get the boot. The entry where I initially snag the foot is crucial as well. I blast/flow into position before he can defend. Then as soon as I grab the heel, I through my hips up(they never come back down) to get the outside hook and immediatly crunch my core to grab upper body control of some kind, mostly the wrist. Its very hard for him to avoid because he has to bring his hands down to address your hooks. As soon as I can grab it I roll onto my outside ear and shoulder and either pull with my inside leg, or push up off his thigh and hip to get the boot. I switch the inside hook to the back of the knee, as I use the boot to pull me to his far ankle. The hand that was controlling the heel advances to it, once I get here its 96.75% done. Never stop climbing the rope or he's gone. As soon as you let go, or lose a grip, grab something else. Being able to move to the next grip by using your hips and hooks is the magic trick. If there is ever a point where one of your four employees doesnt have a job, that grizzly is gonna pin you down and rape you. This is the kind of urgency needed, to make it work nogi. Complacency only leads to failure or reset(same thing).

If he hides from the upper body grip completely, invert and look to push his armpit or ribs, via berimbolo.

Genius. I know only brown belt and above can make video but if you could get permission I think you could make a legit video breaking all this down. There's really none out there for no gi

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Guys dont take this post as a lecture, but as truth. Fact is that MOST, not ALL, of the guys who can crush you without breaking a sweat do both and do it well. Pressure, control, and passing will always work.

I have seen what they are talkin about tho. In smaller, slightly non-competitive gyms. They refuse to roll me nogi. They even show up to nogi open mat with their gi on. Now as Mike said it a nonissue for me. Eddie gave me my fundamentals and im good. I feel fortunate.

The gi to me was like goin to another county that speaks a foriegn language. You might as well learn what you can while you're there to make things easier. But when you leave, you never regret learning another language. It only enhances your ability to communicate.

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Thanks for the support. I agree with you it's a non issue almost everywhere. Outspoken personalities will always share their preferences.

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

There really are.

I still have non competitive black belts telling me "you have to wear the gi to be good at no gi." Not as archaic as you would think. Otherwise all these gi school would have half and half. Not to deviate from the dlr discussion but I was also told "There's no point in having a no gi class. No gi guys can't afford Jiu Jitsu"

Bobby, when you say you're putting the boot on, is it your DLR hook or your free leg that's controlling that far leg. Sounds like there's some fine details I need to work on.

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Key phrase is non-competitive black belts. Again if you're talking any academy that's worth a shit is doing both. The small minority of non competitive guys telling you that aren't worth it, and they definitely represent the minority in 2013. It's like Liquidrob said most people are on both. Alliance is the most successful team in the world and they REQUIRE all of their affiliations to teach almost a 50/50 split. Atos is right on their heels, and all the Atos gyms do both.

I'll let it go. I didn't mean to deviate. I'll post a video for derailing you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttnuZjpbclg

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Thanks for the support. I agree with you it's a non issue almost everywhere. Outspoken personalities will always share their preferences.



Key phrase is non-competitive black belts. Again if you're talking any academy that's worth a shit is doing both. The small minority of non competitive guys telling you that aren't worth it, and they definitely represent the minority in 2013. It's like Liquidrob said most people are on both. Alliance is the most successful team in the world and they REQUIRE all of their affiliations to teach almost a 50/50 split. Atos is right on their heels, and all the Atos gyms do both.

I'll let it go. I didn't mean to deviate. I'll post a video for derailing you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttnuZjpbclg

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i love this vid, have not hit it live rolling but flows and drills it seems to be proper

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Originally Posted by WilliamGunter

i love this vid, have not hit it live rolling but flows and drills it seems to be proper

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Dude the shit is very hard to hit no-gi. Don't feel bad. You have nothing to really grab onto instead of the belt besides their hip. I said it earlier in the thread, the only 2 people I have ever seen do the actual berimbolo no-gi on any consistet level is Caio Terra and Rafa Mendes. Cobrinha has a variation that's close but exactly a berimbolo. It's hard as hell to do.

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Dude the shit is very hard to hit no-gi. Don't feel bad. You have nothing to really grab onto instead of the belt besides their hip. I said it earlier in the thread, the only 2 people I have ever seen do the actual berimbolo no-gi on any consistet level is Caio Terra and Rafa Mendes. Cobrinha has a variation that's close but exactly a berimbolo. It's hard as hell to do.

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Alas is that not why we are here?, to progress the tech and make the hard as hell our bread and butter! that notion is what the differance between the yea and naysayers!!!

Hear hear!

I never said otherwise. just telling him not to feel bad about not being able to berimbolo the world in no-gi as a blue belt

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

I never said otherwise. just telling him not to feel bad about not being able to berimbolo the world in no-gi as a blue belt

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naw dude didn't mean to paint that picture, just puttin the never surrender vibe out there lol, plus not only a blue but a big ass blue belt, so yeah there are prob people who think a 6' 5" 250 lber shouldn't be able to play these open and inverted guards but screw perceptions i'm here to progress.

I can really appreciate a big boy doing things "he's not suppose to". Cyborg Abreu isn't quite your size but I love watching his guard.

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Originally Posted by Brent Smith

I can really appreciate a big boy doing things "he's not suppose to". Cyborg Abreu isn't quite your size but I love watching his guard.

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Man Cyborg is one of the most fun dudes to watch. His style is so awesome for a big dude. Him and Buchecha are my favorite big guys right now

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

Man Cyborg is one of the most fun dudes to watch. His style is so awesome for a big dude. Him and Buchecha are my favorite big guys right now

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I have the Cyborg tornado guard dvds and thats gonna take a lil time to translate to no gi lol!!! but Buchecha is killin it right now,
I love to watch big dudes with great tech and hate excuses lol

Buchecha is such a force. He's another guy I enjoy watching too. I never realized how big he was till his match with Galvao where he made Galvao look like a shorty. The No Gi Tornado DVD is a great DVD (the dvd in the gi is good too). That way you don't have to try to translate it.

Hate excuses too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUiKjAgkOHs

In case anyone hasnt seen this. I attempt the DLR to the back all the time

Exactly why I don't need to make a video. I took details from Zog and Soneca to create my game. I was at Zog's training camp(gamechanger), but didn't know that video existed or I would have posted it.

I've been working it so long that I have adapted it to attack opponents who remain standing, and there are several things I do differently just to keep him from limpin out, which is hard to do on a standing based game opponent, and I have found success. But I owe it to playing with the principles I learned from instructors far greater teachers than I. I am still a student, who likes to share what Ive learned.

That Dlr works nogi. Most likely I won't pull it off on competitve bb, but I'll execute on purps and browns who I consider strong grapplers. Not bragging, just reinforcing the belief I have in the power of this guards nogi applications.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Exactly why I don't need to make a video. I took details from Zog and Soneca to create my game. I was at Zog's training camp(gamechanger), but didn't know that video existed or I would have posted it.

I've been working it so long that I have adapted it to attack opponents who remain standing, and there are several things I do differently just to keep him from limpin out, which is hard to do on a standing based game opponent, and I have found success. But I owe it to playing with the principles I learned from instructors far greater teachers than I. I am still a student, who likes to share what Ive learned.

That Dlr works nogi. Most likely I won't pull it off on competitve bb, but I'll execute on purps and browns who I consider strong grapplers. Not bragging, just reinforcing the belief I have in the power of this guards nogi applications.

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Are you able to DLR if youre going against someone that wont stand pass but pass on their knees instead? I look for it but it doesnt seem like its there. Like not even one knee up the middle just straight knees

This is actually becoming my favorite technique thread has everything counters, set ups, philosophy, spiral, DLR spoken from people that have clearly applied it and done their homework. Everytime I come back to this thread I feel like I learn something new about spiral/DLR

Happy that this thread went well. Talked to one of my buddy whos a purple belt whos adding dlr and rdlr right now for his nogi game right now. The stress point for him right now is the leglocks that people get. Since he didn't train the defense for it when he was a white and maybe blue, other purple and higher belts been catching it ever since.