is a fist choke from side mount a douche move to use?
what moves do you not like to use because of their doucheyness?
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is a fist choke from side mount a douche move to use?
what moves do you not like to use because of their doucheyness?
The shin choke from standing guard pass is probably the only d bag move I know, and I would not use it.
Be careful with fist choke and gag reflex and their variations. 10th Planet nearly lost a highly valued and loved Nibiru warrior brown belt to a ruptured jugular vein that resulted from one of those.
Grinding your forehead into someone's face is a douche move imho. Had a guy do that and it was not super appreciative, to say the least. It's one thing if you're trying to move the guys head to one side or something, but he kept doing it.
I dont do it, but IMO, if you tap from it then you should learn to defend it. If it just hurts, you learn to toughen up.
I feel like it has as much to do with intent as the technique. I don't like pure pain compliance moves during a friendly roll. If it's competition and you wanna try out your pain moves against someone else's adrenaline, be my guest. But in the gym I feel like inflicting pain just to get a tap on your teammate is a dick move.
Some techniques are just a little dickish by their nature but there's nothing wrong with a good, hard crossface; crushing top pressure; or a killer body triangle. I don't get mad when somebody crushes the air out of my chest (Tom...) during a roll. Yeah it sucks, but that's just good technique on their part.
I hadn't heard that. Do you mind sharing what happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRay
Agree with you on not doing pure pain stuff in class... your setting yourself up to be surprised by a failure in competition. (if the move is a PURE pain move)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt
As far as what Scott said, that's true as far as I know (wasn't there at HQ when it happened but heard about it from more than one credible source), just don't want to call anyone out by name on the forums. It might have been talked about on here before and if someone else wants to share, they can.
I really don't know enough details to elaborate any further. (Also kinda feel like its not my place to). I assume there is a couple guys around here that were there in person?
of course it matters who you're rolling with but it sounds like you guys are on the sport jiujitsu side of this more than the wrestling/grappling side. Other than what ScottRay said i dont agree with any of you (granted im not as experienced as some).
You shouldn't get caught with the shin choke from standing guard pass nor should you apply it to the point of being dangerous.
I think "pain moves" sound be part of your techniques so they should be practiced whenever yo have the right partner. If you can distract your opnts mind from what they should be focused on with a bit of discomfort that is built into your game then that's a good thing.
I only care if they have zits or sweat gets on my lips, otherwise fuckin' post up, im not getting any prettier anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKRhino
I didn't mean to pry. I was interested from a safety standpoint. If someone knows the story please feel free to leave out the names, etc. I'd really just like to know what the circumstances were. I have used both the gag reflex and the cobra choke several times and I'd like to think I take care of my partners. If there's a detail to highlight, I'd just like to be aware.
Hope everything turned out OK.
For me I don't use the can opener, I also don't use any fist chokes (although one girl I train with likes to use it, I've been able to escape so far but the ruptured jugular vein does concern me now). I also don't like to go crazy with leg attacks I will generally lock it on and see if they tap/concede if they don't I just transition. I also don't do any face grinding or oversmashing (shoulder of justice).
This I don't care to hear gossip but If it's a safety issue the word should be spread names are not important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt
Yockel does fist chokes and other related things. He doesn't do it to get a tap but just to get u to defend so it opens up something else. Because he know him we don't find it dbag-ish but newer guys probably would. On a rare occasion someone will try some sort of fist choke and get me to tap from it. It's rare anyone goes for it and more so just caught off guard by it. If i tap from it I just think ok well now I see that one coming. Where as if he caught me in a darce or something I could give him props on it.
Oh but cobra chokes are cool.
Why dont you use the can opener? I mean dont break their neck but they just gotta open their guard. If you only train for ibjjf i guess i could understand. anyone that conditions their neck for getting stacked should be able to handle a little can opener, right?
Separately, whats the deal with this jugular danger?
I don't think the can opener even fits into the "douche move" category. If its applied like any other submission (slowly, giving the person a chance to tap without injury) its legit.
the reason why i ask is because i did it for the fisrt time in about a year or two and it felt bad using it. its a pain move that is ridiculously easy to put on. i feel like i didnt deserve a tap from it. now that i know about the juggular thing i think i might jsut stay away from it altogether. maybe to get them to defend it. i think that getting someone in a tight submission etc is fine but to me the fist choke is just ridiculously basic.
thanks for the info guys
but if you tap someone with submissions which are simple then are you not uping their game for them? My coach repeatedly had to open hand choke from the mount (rape choke) me but after a few times i learned how to quickly deal with it and now I dont believe it will ever get me, same with the can opener and my favorite training partner, i never had to tap to it cause he was not putting on fast or hard but he allowed the chance to figure out how to deal with it and now i know and when it happens i just deal with it.
It really depends if you're training for self deference, mma or sport jiujitsu.
I want to know what Zog thinks about this stuff? Whats this jugular death risk thing?
As far as the whole shoulder pressure/ cross face/ forehead pressure discussion, these are all parts of the game. They are highly effective and uncomfortable but that means the person on the bottom needs to learn to deal with them in class so you can deal with them in competition. and if you are really that worried about getting cross faced, tell your partner before, just like you would for heel hooks or arm/ knee crushes.
I do all this shit to my training partners. Just controlled. I apologize while im doing it, even though i hope and know they would do it to me. My job is to
Oops -protect and finish as fast as possible.
That is crazy about the gag reflex. It feels pretty squishy when he's half in and out. I have just let go before. Legitimate concern it seems.
Face locks,twisting knee locks,crown crushes,grinding upper lip are a few d-bag moves not to be done in the gym unless your learning them, but in comps let it rip they work very well.
face lock, crown crush? are these catch terms?
All legal when applied with control in my academy. The only restriction I have is twisting leglocks, which are reserved for blues and up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
Not sure about face lock, but I've heard cranium crunch/crown crush in catch in regards to moves that just put insane pressure on the head (example; from top, getting their head between your calf and thigh and sitting on it). It's painful as all get out. Personally, I don't consider any submission a douche move as long as the intention is not to injure someone, but I see where it could be considered that.
Same. As a big up, I'm well aware that I can develop bad habits from muscling everything. I recall sound advice from Sarkis. It was something along the lines of "muscling will always be available but it's unreliable if you're tired. Technique always wins." So I made a point to try and be more refined and avoid muscling. And he was right. Whenever I wanted or needed to muscle it, I could, except when I was tired. Then ihad no choice to go with tech, which got me less tired anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Carbone
Yup. And I appreciate that. It made me a more well rounded grappler compared to my new crop of partners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
I agree with Tom, Aaron, & Chris. We compete a lot at our school. You fight how you train. You have to learn how to deal with grinding pressure and do your best to learn to get out without exposing yourself if possible. It's a game. The game is to make the other person give you something. I def feel like there are some douche move, but a sub is a sub.
Pain moves..like calf crushes and arm crushes? We do those on the regular. If it hurts, tap, or expose something else I want, maybe the armbar or twister. Now obviously, it depends on who you roll with. If a day 1 guy walks through the door I would hope you wouldn't put 100% pressure on his face, etc. We have a guy in our gym that loves gag reflexes and Ezekiels. I'm glad he does bc it will be nothing new when it happens outside of our gym. I'm prepared.
It's all Jiu Jitsu. I want to know all of it. I don't avoid doing things bc they suck for the other person. Accept what's going on and make your move. But hey, we have a lot of competitors in our gym, so maybe it different elsewhere.
By "pain move" I mean something that depends purely on pain compliance. A calf crush can break your leg or separate a tendon; an arm crush can separate a bicep. I mean a move that doesn't really threaten physical injury if you fail to tap, it just causes pain. Those are just annoying to me and don't fit my style at all. I'm not a fierce competitor. I'm much more into the relaxed roll. A move that just hurts and doesn't require any real finesse or technique -- and more importantly won't really defend you in a serious fight -- falls into the douchy category for me insofar as the gym is concerned. I'd much rather hit a clean Duda or calf crush than dig my shin into the side of your head for three solid minutes. In competition,, all bets are off. If the ol' shin-on-the-head trick works, by all means use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tori Applegate
dude, it takes technique to make little things hurt and make hitting all the uncomfortable details parts of your game. If every time you grab a limb , you have a finger digging into a tendon or nerve, I think that's pretty cool, for sure a matter of the right partner and the right time.If people remember, even subconsciously, that wrestling you hurts, that's good.
i personally think calf crushers and bicep crushers are great. ive been looking for them quite a bit lately. they hurt way more than msot people can take before any damage is done. unlike things such as the heel hook. the reason i dont like some moves is because they dont seem very sportsmanlike, maybe its me just being a softie, but i feel like a fist choke is about as easy as a 600 pound man sitting on a child and calling it a submission.
i like the difference of knowing a dirty technique and using them. its a bit like the peace keepers vs soldiers, peace keepers wait until theyre shot at until the fire back. i dont generally use dirty techniques, knee on face, knuckle in rib, etc but if they start it ill finish it. :)
All I'm saying is, if you're gonna sit in my guard and grind your forehead into my face, I'm gonna think you're a dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
you'd be correct. ;) I wouldn't do it to guys i wasn't friends with outside of comp unless that was the style at their gym.
Remember though, the goal isn't simply to cause pain/discomfort, it is to distract the mind from other aspects of the battle. They should be actually trying to accomplish something while grinding your face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Gustaveson
in saying that, i think there are better ways to distract etc than grind your forehead into someones face etc. some of them are effective but have easy counters. i think id rather be a guy that uses nice techniques to win and not be a dick rather than being a dick and winning.
I think douchy moves have a time and place, everytime I mount my student BBoy that bastard hip bumbs me and everyone else right off. So as I take mount I get him with the D2 until his hands move off my hips then I stop D2 and go to head and armpit
I think a move only become douchy when it has no point and i keep doing it, like the example above I would do but then once i trap his arm i wont keep dropping my elbow into his neck. IMO that would be the douchy part.
some devious douchery caught on video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLYfwjX1to0
I think slams are all too prevalent in competition, and most practitioners aren't aware of the danger they place themselves when jumping guard. But there's some devious douchery going on, when someone scoops you up and drops you on your head, back, or arms breaking them.
I personally don't roll like a douche. I'd rather get tapped or not hurt my training partners so I can continue the reputation of being a good training partner.
My line of thought when it's the other way around is there are no douchey moves, someone wants to kick me in the balls & eye gouge me, go for it. If I can fight through it & still tap you then all you did was make me tougher, test my self control and help me advance. I feel bad for people that have the desire to abuse training partners. They obviously have some ego issues.
What are the better ways? Seems like its more about having a variety of options rather than picking the best to use, especially because these are things that you do while working on other goals not in stead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Atley
You're giving a false choice. A large part of the grappling world doesnt consider this stuff "being a dick"Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Atley
If these things bother you then they are doing exactly what they are supposed to.
kick you in the balls/ gouge your eye? are we on the same thread here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Edlund
When Zog spoke the thread died, what could i say that carries more weight?
[QUOTE=Aaron Gustaveson;193826]What are the better ways? Seems like its more about having a variety of options rather than picking the best to use, especially because these are things that you do while working on other goals not in stead.
so i think u made the example of pushing your forehead into them when in their guard. this either means your arms dont have as much weight on them so tehy are easier to attack, your balance is on your head so its easier to sweep or you make gaps which are easier to move in. mcuh rather play a safer game when in a persons guard like what most people do.
You're giving a false choice. A large part of the grappling world doesnt consider this stuff "being a dick"
i guess for me, its really the intent. (i study ethics so i think about it a lot sorry) i liek the idea of sportsmanship, i think doing a douche move really gives me an advantage unless they are willing to do it aswell. personally i dont want people to be a douche to me when im rolling so i wont be to them. kind of the golden rule idea. and just because its a part of grappling doesnt mean its not a douche thing to do. it just means a bunch of grapplers are douches.
aside from that jiu jitsu is about the submission of someone, not the injury of someone and once you bring the douche moves into it, the lines of whats allowed become blurred and thats when mistakes are made. someone pushes too ahrd or doesnt a really douche move.
If these things bother you then they are doing exactly what they are supposed to.
another douche thing that hasnt been raised is pushing your cup into people when rolling. personally ill never rll without a cup, but following your concept of what should be allowed, pressing your cup into someones back or something is a good idea. to me thats just being rude.
and finally if you do them then eventually you can rely on them and then there are people on whom they dont work, nice moves are fine because they are accepted, but a douche move that doesnt work? that just pisses the other person off and then youve got a problem.
Agreeing to have the conversation using the term "douche moves" is like talking about abortion using the term pro-life.
Im not sure the forehead grinding was my example but posture is what keeps your arms from being attacked not weight on them. Balance is always important and you dont have to compromise it to do this. I dont think you appreciate the skill involved, you dont just stick your ass up and grind your head down on them, usually you will see guys pushing upward (toward the direction of the head as well as grinding down. I get people to the chopping block often when they reach up to address the head pressure (which is often under their chin not on their forehead) Jiujitsu is nerley endless counters to counters so many very accepted and legit techniques open you up to counters (that doesn’t negate them)Quote:
so i think u made the example of pushing your forehead into them when in their guard. this either means your arms dont have as much weight on them so tehy are easier to attack, your balance is on your head so its easier to sweep or you make gaps which are easier to move in. mcuh rather play a safer game when in a persons guard like what most people do.
For me, I’m tough, this stuff doesn't bother me physically. I respect the people I roll with enough to assume that they are tough as well (golden rule). I want people to give their best under the rules (sportsmanship) not assume I’m so delicate that I can’t handle pain or discomfort.Quote:
i guess for me, its really the intent. (i study ethics so i think about it a lot sorry) i liek the idea of sportsmanship, i think doing a douche move really gives me an advantage unless they are willing to do it aswell. personally i dont want people to be a douche to me when im rolling so i wont be to them. kind of the golden rule idea.
It’s part of the sport but still douchey when you do it? Example Tripping people is a douchey thing to do (on the street) when you’re playing a sport where that's allowed in the rules then it is not. Linemen basically push each other in American football, we all know its mean to push people and according to your reasoning just because it’s part of the game, it’s no less douchey. I guess judokas are a bunch of assholes, always throwing each other down?Quote:
and just because its a part of grappling doesnt mean its not a douche thing to do. it just means a bunch of grapplers are douches.
The rule set is the rules set, doing everything inside the rules doesnt change them.Quote:
aside from that jiu jitsu is about the submission of someone, not the injury of someone and once you bring the douche moves into it, the lines of whats allowed become blurred and thats when mistakes are made. someone pushes too ahrd or doesnt a really douche move.
I dont think that cups should be allowed, that's a problem with the rules set IMO. If they are allowed then you better get used to dealing with whatever pain they can cause so hopefully you have training partners that aren't babying you and you can learn to negate the cup.Quote:
another douche thing that hasnt been raised is pushing your cup into people when rolling. personally ill never rll without a cup, but following your concept of what should be allowed, pressing your cup into someones back or something is a good idea. to me thats just being rude.
What problem do I have? My opnt is emotional and probably not able to think at their best? They are distracted from the fight? Are they going to hulk out on me?Quote:
and finally if you do them then eventually you can rely on them and then there are people on whom they dont work, nice moves are fine because they are accepted, but a douche move that doesnt work? that just pisses the other person off and then youve got a problem.
You are starting down a slippery slope of labeling all sorts of things as "douchey" can openers, heel hooks, slices, even reaping the knee for christ sake. If something like the rape choke is not respectable to you because it is "easier" to apply than some other chokes then, you could extend your logic saying that going for the most technical submissions possible is most respectable.
Thing is if you’re not trying to win within the rule set then aren't you disrespecting your opnt by not giving them your best fight? Aren't you doing your training partners a disservice by not allowing them to become familiar with these legal techniques?