My instructor says not to, but 10p does. .. Can someone break it down for me? What are the pros and cons?
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My instructor says not to, but 10p does. .. Can someone break it down for me? What are the pros and cons?
My lowly take on it:
First, 10th doesn't exactly say that crossing is the 100% right way. We cross in spiderweb cuz it offers better control. Or for the x break cuz it just falls into place.
I like crossing my ankles for control. There are a lot of armbar escapes that are nullified by crossing your ankles under the far shoulder. Also, Ronda, the friggin Jesus of armbars, crosses her ankles. She used it to tap Miesha. So, if it's good enough for Ronda, it's good enough for me.
That said, it's more situational than a 100% must every time. But it's definitely not a bad thing to do when it's appropriate.
Your instructor may just be trying to enforce basics for the time being. So don't hold it against him.
Rener Gracie did a breakdown recently where he said it was ok to cross the ankles if they are under the far shoulder.
At a recent grappling event someone asked myself and another group of people what was better : I answered before anyone saying crossed, everyone else straight/flat and was sure to point out that I was wrong.. I assumed it was just because of our spiderweb based game that I found it more ideal... However, in multiple videos recently I have seen high level BJJ players suggesting crossing the legs in many situations.... Im inclined to think not crossing was one of those rules that is meant to give students a higher introductory success percentage, and to be broken with exception, but now more and more exceptions are being realized... I personally love it for so many different reasons, even for just that it keeps their far arm close enough to you to do whichever break you want....
Interesting update: I searched this topic on most of the big grappling forums, posts older than a few years say straight, posts from the last few years almost all seem to say crossed aslong as you have both arms trapped.. I guess its becoming common place ;]
Crossed is the way to go in my opinion. My instructor told me that he and a lot of other instructors teach new students not to cross their feet in order to emphasize how important squeezing the knees together is in an armbar but that ultimately crossing the feet is the way to go when under the far shoulder.
Clarification: Your feet are crossed in spiderweb, they are NOT crossed when finishing an armbar. Spiderweb is a position, armbar is a sub. The details are different.
Different tools for different jobs.
I think Dan is right. Newbs are told to not cross their ankles because it tends to make you splay your legs. Once you are aware enough of the position, you can cross your ankles while keeping your knees pinched.
I personally like crossing the ankles because it stops both the hitch hiker and stops them from pushing your leg into half guard. You are more susceptible to them bridging/scissoring their legs, but if you grab onto a leg you can keep them fairly controlled.
As a beginner you learn the rules. Always do this. Never do this. To borrow from Josh Waitzkin in The Art Of Learning we "learn form."
As your knowledge, experience, timing, and most importantly your sensitivity develops you begin to understand that there are gray areas, and that perhaps "never" and "always" were simply learning tools placed there to help you develop. We "learn form to leave form." I have instructed my 5 year old daughter to "never cross the road by herself." That doesn't mean that it's wrong for her to cross the road or that one day she won't be able to cross the road all by herself. But for now, it's something I don't want her to branch out into.
It is "safer" and easier to begin your understanding of arm bars with the legs crossed. As you develop and mature as a grappler, you will find moments when it is not only acceptable to uncross your legs, but more efficient and technically superior.
An argument I have heard for not crossing your legs during an arm bar is that, when crossed, they basically become a single appendage. You lose independent control and, instead of worry about shucking two legs off, your opponent can move both your legs at once.
If you're doing an arm bar from the bottom, wouldn't you want to curl your one leg back on the head, which would not be possible if your ankles were crossed?
Attachment 2526
You cross your feet in spider web to prevent your opponent from corkscrewing out of the armbar in the event that you lose control of the leg or decide to abandon it. From day one I teach people to cross the feet and mention to squeeze the knee's together.
When attempting armbars from guard you cross the feet when locking the shoulder. If you pass the leg over the head it's technically better to not cross the feet because the rmbar is stronger.
Powerful!Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Mccaghren
so as far as im aware the differences between crossing and not crossing has to do with control vs strength. crossing your legs is good while in spider web because it controls their shoulder and that weakens their ability to bridge out of it or corkscrew etc. when you dont cross you legs, its meant to give you more strength (dont quote me on this) because the hamstrings and quads are working in a more normal movement. when the legs are crossed this angles them and the ab/adductors are working which are no where near as strong. crossing the legs is better when on top because of control and on bottom not crossing is better.
thats at least the way i generally think of it, as some of the others said its situational rather than better or worse. i really like teh idea of getting their shoulders off the ground because it takes away so much of their game.
Brandon has spelled the correct!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9wbqZgsL8#t=359
At the 5:50 mark, he talks about crossing the feet
Denny sharing the knowledge! Couldn't agree more!Quote:
Originally Posted by DENNY PROKOPOS
I agree with Denny and Brandon. I cross them when finishing from spider web. I don't think I cross them anywhere else though. You can't stomp the head down as much if your feet are crossed. I say whatever position feels the best clinch wise, that's how I do mine. Most of the time I never cross. I'm too small to risk losing even a little bit of control when going for the finish.
Exactly. Leg curling from bottom stop them from posturing and hulking outQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Carbone
If you disalign the spine, the entire body becomes weaker. I never cross from the bottom, unless trapping the shoulder like Denny stated. I transition from crossed to control in spider web to squeezing their head off line while leaning toward and lacing the legs to over power their defense. If they stay strong I transition to standard control and attempt other breaks. Options.
I cross from everywhere, however I have godlike leg curls.
Attachment 2528Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=509989242407963
watched this video and first thing i see in the comments , is someone complaining about him crossing his legs. obviously this guy is shit at jiu jitsu not to mention life, because he didnt armbar correctly.
Classic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Carbone
Cross your feet in spider web arm bar, this is crucial. Look at Rickson vs Takada. End of story.
Arm crush arm bar is your feet are still crossed but in a different position.
From the classic closed guard, leg curl his head with one leg, squeeze knees together, leg curl his body with other leg. I would toss or swim if his defending arm is in the mix.
From muddy waters you will do both at the same time. No need to toss or swim because his defending arm in out the mix.
:)
How many of my armbars and triangles have you escaped?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Carbone
Don't worry I help you with the number.
https://i.imgflip.com/1bij.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
/thread
Well played ;)
I alwAys cross legs when attacking from top.
Arm bar from guard though I don't, I curl the leg behind the head and try and touch it to the floor.
Took it from Caio Terra, I either get the sub or they roll through to their back and I get the sub or spider web
My experience is that instructors teach new students not to cross their ankles because it helps to emphasize the need to squeeze the knees. They stop paying attention by blue belt is what I've noticed.