Wrestling has 4 UFC belts, BJJ has 0: one explanation why

Out of the eight UFC weight classes, four title holders would identify as Wrestlers: Dillashaw, Hendricks, Weidman, Velasquez....(Jones has a wrestling background, but I didn't count him).

Obviously this is a very different distribution of titles than one would expect to see in 1993 when BJJ dominated in MMA. Three main reasons for the decline in BJJ's success have been well documented: 1) the use of a kimono in training, 2) tournaments/academies that ban certain submissions (leg locks, slicers, etc), 3) tournaments/academies that encourage points instead of submissions.

I think there is another factor that is not being talked about. Why is it that Junior College Wrestlers are winning fights in the UFC and BJJ World Champions like Roger Gracie are being cut?

My theory starts in the year 708 B.C. when the Greeks added wrestling to the Olympics. International high level Wrestling programs are commonplace; countries like Iran and Russia even have state sponsored Wrestling programs. In the U.S., elite wrestlers distinguish themselves as State and NCCA Champions, and then a small group of NCCA Champions become Olympians.

I think it is simple mathematics: more people in the world participating in a sport for a longer time + more high level competitions = a more competitive sport.

Wrestling has been practiced at an Olympic level for 2700 years. Wrestling techniques and training methods have been fine tuned for almost 3-millennia. At the highest level, there are very few takedowns or pins. The matches are so competitive, an underhook might be the difference between Gold and Silver. When the competition is that high, competitors have to be in impeccable shape, cut just the right amount of weight, have the right strength to weight ratio, have wrestled since they were 3 etc. etc.

Put simply, when I think of a World Champion wrestler, I think of a high level athlete. On the other hand, Jiu Jitsu world champions vary greatly in athletic ability.

My theory is that as BJJ competition becomes more widespread, it will become more competitive. When you have to be a world class athlete to be a World Champion in Jiu Jitsu, BJJ will enjoy more success in the UFC.

For example, if Roger Grace had been born in a wrestling family in Iowa, I don't know that he would be an Olympic champion in wrestling. I don't know that he has the physical attributes. However, if you are going to wrestle at a D1 school, you essentially need to be a genetic freak. For example, look at the success Jacare Souza is having in the UFC. He's a nightmare on the ground, but his athleticism makes him a serious threat on the feet, even though he hasn't had the time to master striking.

Also, Wrestling mainly takes place at non-profit institutions, such as high schools, universities and Olympic training centers. When there is no profit motive, there is no reason for a school to shun a technique if it is effective. In contrast, BJJ academies and tournaments are almost exclusively profit ventures. When large associations have been "selling" BJJ in the Kimono, it becomes extremely difficult to switch to no-gi, or, as seen after the last Metamoris, to admit that other associations have made valuable contributions to the game.

I think another difference between Wrestling and BJJ is the fact that Wrestling mainly takes place on the feet. I know this sounds like a no shit point, but I think there are important distinctions between a sport that takes place on the feet vs. a sport that mostly takes place on the ground. For one, MMA fights start on the feet. When a ref starts a match, Wrestlers are in a very familiar position, both competitors standing up. When a BJJ competitor enters an MMA fight, there is an intermediate step (a takedown) before the BJJ competitor is at home.

Also, since Wrestling mainly takes place on the feet, my guess is that there are physiological differences between Wrestling and BJJ. When you are tired, do you bend at a 90 degree angle or dance around on your feet, or do you lay down? My theory is that Wrestling, which incorporates the large glute muscles and core at every second might force athletes to develop a physiological superior body, but I haven't worked out the science, so it is just bro science for now.

Further, a big part of Wrestling is competition. A mandatory part of the Wrestling season is weekly competition, if you don't compete, you can't even practice. Wrestlers seem to be amazing competitors, guys like Weidman and Velasquez seem eerily cool under pressure. In BJJ, I don't know of any compulsory competitions, or many people who compete every week for a few months a year.

This is just my theory, and I am sure there are lots of nuisances that I am not addressing. I look forward to hearing what the 10 family has to say so I can sharpen the argument.

One obvious counter-example is why weren't Wrestlers dominating in the early days of the UFC? My reply is for one, I didn't see any Mark Colemans or Dan Henersons in the early early UFC days. Because Wrestling competition is so well established, the elite level wrestlers continued to make a good living in Wrestling instead of competing in the UFC three times per year (in Biloxi Mississippi) :). As the UFC became more prominent, Wrestlers like Randy Couture, who could never make it on the Olympic team (except as an alternate) began to see MMA as a viable alternative. As MMA became more lucrative, more decorated Wrestlers like Velasquez and Cormier have transitioned into MMA.

But Wrestlers HAVE dominated in the early days of the UFC. Once Royce stopped fighting, it was Severn who won. Most of the time when a wrestler would fight he'd win. Mark Schultz. Don Frye wrestled a bit. Mark Coleman. Mark Kerr. BJJ would win in the early days because most guys were still unaware of the subs. Wrestlers eventually learned BJJ and started smashing BJJ guys. Strikers had trouble with TDD. Then they learned and started giving the wrestlers problems.

I think there are a few reasons why BJJ fell off as the dominant art. In addition to your point of athleticism, I also believe it's about style and toughness.

IMO the arms race of MMA was between strikers and wrestlers while BJJ evolved itself seperate from MMA into more of its own sport and less of a fighting system. So you see guys like Hendricks knocking guys out with newly learned striking. You see strikers like Lawler with good TDD. But then you have guys like Maia and Roger who suck at everything except BJJ. Problem is, modern traditional BJJ doesn't fit modern MMA.

For your BJJ to be good in MMA you need a 5 minute style. You need a fast paced, guard passing, punching, submission chaining style with the finish always on your mind. With the rules as they are in MMA, there's little room for slow paced methodical BJJ. You can't think, ok, I'll try to finish once I pass guard. No, you should be punching WHILE you work on passing. Joey DiSalvo's recent match is a good example. Cain Velazquez is a good example. Jake Shields is a bad example (sorry). And once you pass, you should be punching and looking for subs. Basically always doing damage. Always threatening a finish.

And on bottom, your guard should be super active. But we already know that.


Traditional BJJ makes up the majority of BJJ stylists in MMA. The points style really hinders their fight efficiency. It's a fight but you rarely see BJJ guys making it a fight. Instead they make it a grappling contest. Like jake shields. Punches are huge because they can be demoralizing. As long as the guy is not being punched, he has a bit more morale to feel like they're still in the fight. Like they can still get back to their feet and beat you. Look at Maia vs Rory as an example. Maia had the friggin mount. Did nothing with it. At first, you could tell Rory was not happy. The end was near. But as time went on and he wasn't getting hurt by punches, and submission attempts weren't being thrown at him, and he realized the end is not near. He put up a fight and came back to dominate. Now look at Cain's fights. He takes their souls with his relentless attack. Look at Boogeyman's last fight. Look at Joey DiSalvo. You gotta take their morale from top position. But traditional BJJ doesn't teach that killer instinct. It teaches points. But you don't get three points for a pass in MMA.

I think another part is that modern BJJ went soft. I feel like BJJ in MMA has forgotten that this was started as a martial art, not a sport. They've forgotten the point of why we take a guy to the ground. It's to be able to hit them as much as much as I want (or don't want) while they can't hit me back. But this is a fight sport. You don't get three points for passing guard. You get points for scoring damage. Not literally, but you get my point. The point is modern BJJ has taken the fight out of old school original BJJ. Someone could correct me, but from what I know about wrestling, there is no rolling light. They go hard every time. And in striking, even when you go light, you're still getting hit. It breeds a certain toughness that modern BJJ doesn't really give. So you have guys who've spent years in a hostile sport getting into MMA and transitioning with hardly any extra effort. Then you have other guys who are trying to learn toughness later in life. But that kind of toughness doesn't come easy.

I'm not saying BJJ guys are pussies by any means. If I thought that, I wouldn't love BJJ the way I do. But I've followed this art for 19 years and have seen a lot of changes from the sidelines. I've watched it steer further away from the martial art. I've watched the softening. No neck cranks. No heel hooks. No reaping. The gi became divine. The art became a sport. The sport became a religion. And while BJJ devolved, MMA evolved. And that's why I gravitated toward 10th planet. Because it's the one place that cared about the state of BJJ in MMA. It's the one place that is saying, we're going to make a modern MMA relevant style of jiu jitsu to remind people that it's still a killer martial art.

I'm a end my rant here cuz I could go on forever. Either way 10thP4L.

Good points David. I didn't really address the ban on certain subs, or the points system in my post because I think those arguments are pretty well settled, but I definitely agree in that regard.

I actually just talked to my good friend on FB who is a long time wrestler. He made the same point about the fast-paced wrestling style translating better to MMA than the more methodical, sometimes endurance based BJJ approach.

So add that to the list of arguments for why Wrestling is outdoing BJJ in MMA: the format of Wrestling matches is better suited to MMA, which usually has three 5-minute rounds, and you start standing at the start of each round. Wrestling matches, with three 3-minute periods seems to translate better to MMA, where BJJ matches can go 20 or 30 minutes uninterrupted. However, I would imagine at black belt, the average match time is about 10 minutes, but the rules on stalling in BJJ do not seem to be as strict as in Wrestling. Also, the match is not divided into periods where the competitors are stood up, like wrestling and MMA.

The more I talk about it, the more I realize how MMA is a sport as well. It went from being the ultimate proving ground for martial arts to being its own sport. BJJ is still self defense relevant. But MMA rules just don't favor BJJ. At all.

I wonder how much would change if the UFC allowed fighters to wear rashguards and/or spats for some grip/moisture control. I think the fact that they are so slippery is a MAJOR factor also in the ability for wrestlers to dominate.

Good point Stan, it seems like in BJJ you can utilize clothing to your advantage, not so much I'm the singlet. In college wrestling there are even restrictions on grasping your hands, it's like the opposite of being able to grab the gi

well in america kids aren't training bjj as much as they are wrestling. 10 yrs ago in some major cities you would be surprised to find a lot of wrestling programs, im from philly, and went to a big sports HS where the football coach was the AD and was scared to have football players wrestle bc they might get hurt so we didn't have a wrestling program, we couldn't even play basketball with our friends or the whole team was punished. that's why wrestling has it over bjj now, in the states at least

didnt anderson silva beat chael sonnen (great wrestler) w a triangle, didnt anderson silva beat dan henderson w a rear naked choke, how many times do we see guys take someones back and finish.....bjj

True true, techniques from BJJ are still widely used in MMA, especially when a guy is nearly unconscious from strikes (Silva v. Dan Henderson). However, fighters who identify with BJJ are not winning like fighters who identify as wrestlers. Anderson has awesome BJJ, but it is a little different b/c you almost had to take him down. If Anderson had no striking his ground game would be different, people would not be content to stay in his guard and would not take him down.

I think it's as simple as a bjj guy has to get through the opponent's wrestling to get him to the ground. If he has better wrestling/judo than the bjj guy, the bjj guy won't even get a chance to get him to the ground and use his technique. Even if the bjj guy has better wrestling than the opponent, he still might not be able to get him to the ground because he can't get through the strikes. His only chance to use bjj against an opponent that outwrestles or strikes him is in the guard (or on top after a sweep). And the bjj guard play we're seeing used just isn't working well in mma.

Striker/bjj or wrestler/bjj far outdo bjj/striker or bjj/wrestler at this point because the best striker/wrestler/judo is going to manage the takedowns. We'll have to see guard get better for this to change or better clinching to the back on the feet.

BJJ is still an essential part of every fighter's skill set in that you don't bother competing without submissions experience. It's true not a lot of fighters make subs their main game now, though. Lots of obvious reasons for that in sport BJJ.

I still think strikers with a great BJJ game are the most exciting fighters to watch. The way you can throw strikes when you really don't care much about getting taken down is totally different from the way you have to throw when you need to avoid the takedown at all costs.

I have a lot to add to this conversation as I researched this issue quite a bit recently. The first data point I would add is to also consider the dominance of some former champions. Some of these are kind of obvious. Randy Couture, Matt Hughes, and GSP. The first two had epic level wrestling from young ages. The last of which was a prodigy.

My kids are one of the main reasons I looked into this as they both claim they want to be MMA fighters when they grow up. My daughter in particular won't shut up about it. So we started with wrestling because Wrestling first of all is generally a lot cheaper to get involved in. There is usually one up-front fee to get your kids involved in wrestling every season and for that fee that get two sessions a week (on average) and can go to a tournament every single week during the season that stretches from December to March for Folkstyle, and April through June for Freestyle/Greco Roman. LOTS of mat time. Compare the say 100 bucks for six months of wrestling to the 100 bucks (or more) for BJJ PER MONTH in many instances and you get the point here.

Then comes quality and duration of training. BJJ and Judo classes usually go about 1 hour. (For kids, and you find that champions tended to start very young) Wrestling sessions can go as long as three. Ronda Rousey's mother has a great blog talking about how Judo players should train like Wrestlers because wrestling practices are VERY tough. When my daughter started wrestling last December she could barely do 20 sit ups. She wrestled from then until now and is still wrestling. During a break we decided to see how many sit ups she could do. She got to 130 and asked if she could stop because it was boring. Her conditioning is vastly improved.

Intensity is also a serious issue. My kids also do Judo and BJJ in a club that does both, though we stopped going for a while as the days for practice fell on the same days as Wrestling. So during a break in Wrestling my daughter went back to Judo and rolled with a girl who used to tap her out easily. When the two went at it after seven months or so of wrestling however my daughter dominated aggressively on the ground and then took her back and tapped her out easily. (Now, results will vary with this sort of thing obviously.) But the comparison in her ground game pre-wrestling to now was like night and day. The girl she tapped out regularly medals in Judo.

On the youth level, the intensity in training in most schools for kids doing BJJ and Judo falls far behind what kids do in wrestling so far as conditioning and aggressive pace. The core strength they develop is enormous. The amount of mat time they get is generally way higher. And they live in a no-gi environment.

Eddie talks about a lot of this in his book in the starting chapters. The stuff he says resonated with me right away as it fit with everything I had already observed. He discusses the impact the Gi has on training and why a lot of BJJ guys are not getting submissions like they used to.

Point of fact, there are now a lot of successful MMA fighters who beat BJJ black belts with only passable BJJ. Having a BJJ Black Belt is just not the "I-win" button it used to be. And while some of that certainly has to do with BJJ going soft as you put it, some of it is the natural evolution of the fight.

So now for the "fight evolution" part of my essay.

I am sure any of you who have watched Kung Fu movies know about the "rival school" concept and how martial arts schools used to be very secretive. While it makes for good storytelling it's also 100% true and has a very practical purpose.

Someone pointed out that wrestlers did dominate as soon as Royce left. I would also go so far as to say that if Royce had stayed his dominance would of gone right with it. Royce never fought Dan Severyn again. And I have every confidence that if he did, Dan would of defeated him. When the superfight wth Ken Shamrock happened you could watch as they didn't know what to do when the fight went on and on. Eventually you can watch them manufacture out of thin air the rules for a "draw". The fight ended with Ken not having a mark on him, and Royce's face looking pretty beat up. In modern MMA rules, Royce would of lost that fight. If it had been allowed to continue he would of as well.

Submissions work brilliantly on people who have no idea what you are doing. The Gracies started selling DVD sets and opening schools, it was only a matter of time before life long grapplers were going to be able to fend off submissions. The learning curve for submission defense for someone who has been wrestling their whole lives is really easy.

To further elaborate on this, watch Kazushi Sakuraba, a Catch Wrestler (wrestling with submissions that already existed in wrestling that were not being used anymore) dominate and defeat every Gracie they put in front of him.

Then watch Matt Hughes defeat Royce, in a very one sided battle.

BJJ is important. Submissions and submission defense will always be important. But it is not the foundation of MMA anymore. You cannot rely on submissions working against wrestlers who are by their nature far stronger then you, have 1000s of hours of mat time, are not wearing a Gi, and are covered in sweat. You also cannot rely on attacking a striker with takedowns to escape their boxing and Thai anymore for that matter. The secrets of the "rival school" are out. So now submissions are back to being another tool on the wall of the arsenal of the complete fighter. Whereas wrestling is becoming the pillars that hold up the foundation. Not just from technique but from a conditioning standard second to none. And as Combat Submission Wrestling and Catch Wrestling are now coming back into use, this trend will only continue.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

The more I talk about it, the more I realize how MMA is a sport as well. It went from being the ultimate proving ground for martial arts to being its own sport. BJJ is still self defense relevant. But MMA rules just don't favor BJJ. At all.

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This is a very important point to consider. Sports affect the evolution of everything.

My Judo Sensei has been in the game for a long time and he pointed out that virtually everything in BJJ is contained in Judo Newaza (ground fighting). Why is it not emphasized? In Judo rules as they have developed you have a VERY small window to do Newaza to go for a submission or pin before the referee will stand you up. A such, a lot of Judo players came to rely on just turtling the moment they hit the ground rather then risk being submitted or pinned. The fastest way to win in Judo is to throw you flat on your back as that ends the match instantly. So they tend to work towards that.

Situations evolved different players. So for example Ronda Rousey's mother had a serious knee injury and could no longer rely on throws. Therefore she evolved an intensely aggressive Newaza game to adapt and the result? World championships. And a daughter/student who can arm bar you in the time it takes you to blink. People who didn't know Judo assumed Ronda learned her arm bar from BJJ. Nope. Arm Bars, Triangle Chokes, and the vast majority of submissions in BJJ come from Judo Newaza. There is a style called Kosen Judo that is ALL ground work and it looks very similar to BJJ when it is practiced. Sadly it is hard to find. However, Helio Gracie was very versed in it. (See the roots of BJJ here?)

Another example of changes made for competition was the rules changes in Judo. Judo used to have variations of the single leg and double leg takedowns. Now you cannot touch the legs at all in Judo. Why? Those takedowns were not practiced very heavily by Judoka, so when wrestlers showed up at Judo tournaments a lot of Judoka got cremed. (Because if you did a single or double and dumped someone flat on their back the match was over. Instantly, just like that. The term is "Ippon".)

Wrestling, ALSO went through a transformation due to rules in competition, and this included all submissions being removed. Catch Wrestling with all of it's brutal submission glory used to be an olympic sport alongside Greco-Roman.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/8/13...atch-wrestling

A lot of rules changes in combat sports are made to make the fight more interesting to spectators as well. Freestyle Wrestling for example evolved because it is fun to watch. But there are tons of ways to score in Freestyle wrestling that would not harm anyone at all in a fight. I can gator roll you, leg lace you, and gut wrench you all day long and not hurt you in the slightest. But every time I do that to you in Freestyle I get 2 points for every time your back is exposed. Which racks up quickly. If I leg laced you in a street fight it would annoy you as you would start spinning but it's not lethal by any stretch of the imagination. (Don't get me wrong, there is still some great stuff to learn in Freestyle, but I think you get my point.)

Perhaps the most useful form of wrestling (other then catch) for MMA would be Folkstyle as it is all about positional dominance and takedowns. And it's not even an Olympic sport. In both Freestyle and Greco-Roman the ground game suffers a bit as if you flatten out and lay there long enough the Referee will stand you up. No such rule in Folkstyle. If you lay there in Folkstyle and let someone control you you will lose.

The turtle position that Judokas run to as well as the flat on the belly with your arms stretched out position used in Freestyle and Greco-Roman would also get you knocked right out in a streetfight, and would not do so well in MMA either.

So now I come to MMA being a proving ground for the street.

MMA is a useful tool and every martial artist interested in self defense should consider doing it even just with their friends in a safe environment. That said, MMA fighters also make mistakes that would be exploited in a streetfight. You see it all the time when someone throws a high kick an gets kicked in the groin. Or just gets kicked in the groin in general. There would be no referee in a street fight there to give you five minutes to feel better. You would just get destroyed. MMA fighters also become reliant on the rules to protect the backs of their heads. It doesn't take very sophisticated training to know how to elbow/punch/kick the back of the head.

All of this is why Bruce Lee did not go into competitions. Though his school and students emphasize sparring A LOT.

Awesome posts Niel.

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Originally Posted by David Rosado

Awesome posts Niel.

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Thanks! :)

All good commenets but did somebody forget about Jose Also? I'm pretty sure he's a black belt. Weidman does have a huge wrestling background but is also high level bjj belt under Matt Serra. Bottom line, today it is impossible to be succesful in MMA if you are a one trick pony. Must be well rounded. Interesting post.

Awesome Neil, this adds two important nuances to the discussion. If you don't mind, I'm gonna respond to them in the opposite order. The second argument you made was something like: BJJ has been a victim of its own success, since part of a techniques' effectiveness is the fact that your opponent is not ready for it. Your first point is about the cost and characteristics of wrestling training for kids, I think that is a good point too, and I'll talk about it in my next post.

So I agree that part of a techniques' effectiveness is the fact that it is new, or surprising, or unknown to your opponent. To take a non-BJJ example, when Anderson fought Belfort, another master striker, he had to do something unexpected (the front kick to the face) in order finish Belfort. Now, there are still front kicks landing, but they are harder to land because fighters are expecting them (especially after Machida landed it again on Randy). Analogously, part of BJJ's initial success was the fact that the guard and submissions were so foreign to the traditional martial artists. Once Matt Hughes studied Jiu Jitsu for a while, he could shut Royce's Jiu Jitsu down, then win the fight with his better athleticism and striking. Similarly, Sakaraba was such a problem for the Gracie's because he had such an unorthodox submission game, one they weren't seeing regularly in practice. If that is true, then Wrestlers will start to lose their dominance because strikers will add takedown defense to their games, and BJJ guys are getting better takedowns. I think this sort of evolution happens on a wider scale. Initially, the countries that were best at the martial arts won wars, then the countries with the best swords won...then guns, missiles, nuclear bombs. However, as the offensive weapons evolve, so do the defensive measures. As we have gone from swords to guns, we have also gone from armor to bullet proof vests. Because the rear naked choke has been such a powerful finishing move, guys have gotten really good at RNC defense, to the point that it is really hard to get one in the UFC.

I think this brings up a problem in BJJ of "tradition," "hespect," "basics" etc etc. I think you could argue that certain parts of the BJJ community have failed to embrace new techniques now that the old school moves are too well known. It's hard to imagine that being apart of 10th planet and the mass of innovative BJJ players, but I think it is not the case in every association. For example, RNC's are incredibly hard to get in the UFC right now, but I don't see fighters transition to the truck to set up a calf slicer or twister or another back take with better wrist control. Because moves like the truck are much newer and more innovative, opponents have had less time to develop familiarity or defenses to the truck.

However, the counter argument is while widely known techniques lose their surprise factor, there is a reason why they became mainstream, its usually because they have been proven in the past. Any style has to strike a balance between these two extremes.

Also, there are non-martial arts factors in fighting that have experienced a similar evolution, and heavily influence fights. Guys are better and better at cutting weight, strength/conditioning and diet/nutrition. Wrestlers are known for being experts in cutting weight, BJJ tournament discourage weight cutting with day in weigh ins. Wrestlers are known for their strength and conditioning, BJJ values technique over strength, and the little guy being able to beat the big guy. I don't really know about the difference in diet/nutrition between wrestling and BJJ or there is one. The point is, Wrestlers seem to be better at two really important factors in an MMA fight, the weight cut and strength/conditioning. That definitely explains some of the Wreslter's success, and an opportunity for improvement in BJJ (although Anthony Johnson proves you can take the weight cut too far.)

I want to see if the point about evolution applies to my original point that Wrestling is benefiting from almost three centuries of competition to isolate the most effective techniques and training methods.

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Originally Posted by VIVIANO

Awesome Neil, this adds two important nuances to the discussion. If you don't mind, I'm gonna respond to them in the opposite order. The second argument you made was something like: BJJ has been a victim of its own success, since part of a techniques' effectiveness is the fact that your opponent is not ready for it. Your first point is about the cost and characteristics of wrestling training for kids, I think that is a good point too, and I'll talk about it in my next post.

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Cool. :)

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So I agree that part of a techniques' effectiveness is the fact that it is new, or surprising, or unknown to your opponent. To take a non-BJJ example, when Anderson fought Belfort, another master striker, he had to do something unexpected (the front kick to the face) in order finish Belfort. Now, there are still front kicks landing, but they are harder to land because fighters are expecting them (especially after Machida landed it again on Randy). Analogously, part of BJJ's initial success was the fact that the guard and submissions were so foreign to the traditional martial artists. Once Matt Hughes studied Jiu Jitsu for a while, he could shut Royce's Jiu Jitsu down, then win the fight with his better athleticism and striking. Similarly, Sakaraba was such a problem for the Gracie's because he had such an unorthodox submission game, one they weren't seeing regularly in practice. If that is true, then Wrestlers will start to lose their dominance because strikers will add takedown defense to their games, and BJJ guys are getting better takedowns.

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Everyone is adding TD Defense to their game. Wrestlers are naturally good at it as it is crucial to having any success in wrestling. Statistically the one who gets the take down almost always wins in Wrestling.

But I would add another thing I realized I had left out of my previous posts. There is also something to be said for simplicity of technique. Going to call on my Jeet Kune Do fanboyism a bit here but everything Bruce brought into his game was streamlined, spartan, and direct. While submissions are not all very complicated the learning curve on getting extremely good with them as opposed to the learning curve of learning adequate submission defense is not an even race. This for example is why a lot of the standing submissions and wrist locks from arts like Aikido and JJJ don't find their way into the ring. People just pull their hands away from you because they see it coming. The same is starting to happen with BJJ submissions. You can spend decades of your life practicing JJJ submissions and destructions and be able to pull them off sometimes. Now BJJ submissions are far easier to pull off then JJJ ones but I think you get my point.

The wrestler game of takedown+ground and pound is very simple to master. And is far more difficult to counter.

Furthermore, Wrestlers make good strikers. Randy Couture actually had very little boxing experience before he went into MMA (contrary to popular belief, he hit pads in the military but he never went father then that.) but the natural strong as hell core that wrestlers have make for powerful punchers. Athleticism is a requirement for strong striking. And that's why wrestlers make that transition better then people going from BJJ to striking.

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I think this sort of evolution happens on a wider scale. Initially, the countries that were best at the martial arts won wars, then the countries with the best swords won...then guns, missiles, nuclear bombs. However, as the offensive weapons evolve, so do the defensive measures. As we have gone from swords to guns, we have also gone from armor to bullet proof vests. Because the rear naked choke has been such a powerful finishing move, guys have gotten really good at RNC defense, to the point that it is really hard to get one in the UFC.

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I think that situation is just going to keep happening with every submission.

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I think this brings up a problem in BJJ of "tradition," "hespect," "basics" etc etc. I think you could argue that certain parts of the BJJ community have failed to embrace new techniques now that the old school moves are too well known. It's hard to imagine that being apart of 10th planet and the mass of innovative BJJ players, but I think it is not the case in every association. For example, RNC's are incredibly hard to get in the UFC right now, but I don't see fighters transition to the truck to set up a calf slicer or twister or another back take with better wrist control. Because moves like the truck are much newer and more innovative, opponents have had less time to develop familiarity or defenses to the truck.

However, the counter argument is while widely known techniques lose their surprise factor, there is a reason why they became mainstream, its usually because they have been proven in the past. Any style has to strike a balance between these two extremes.

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Don't disagree with anything there.

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Also, there are non-martial arts factors in fighting that have experienced a similar evolution, and heavily influence fights. Guys are better and better at cutting weight, strength/conditioning and diet/nutrition. Wrestlers are known for being experts in cutting weight, BJJ tournament discourage weight cutting with day in weigh ins.

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As someone who is the parent of two wrestlers I am happy to say they have at least in youth wrestling taken measures to deal with the weight cutting issue. Personally this is something I agree with Joe Rogan about 100%. It should not be a thing at all. I am all for weigh ins an hour before a fight. Fight at the damn weight you are supposed to be fighting at. If you are not at that weight, then do healthy things to get yourself there. People should not be cutting 30 lbs by just not drinking water, getting into heat suits, on exercise bikes IN the SAUNA and then walking into the ring 30 lbs heavier then the weight class they are competing in. Hell, put the damn scale right outside the ring as they go in.

On the other side of it, some wrestlers get good at this because in the middle school and high school level where most wrestling takes place you try out for a specific weight class and if you don't maintain that weight class you don't get to compete. Unfortunately that's part of the issue with the "Dual Teams" method of competition.

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Wrestlers are known for their strength and conditioning, BJJ values technique over strength, and the little guy being able to beat the big guy. I don't really know about the difference in diet/nutrition between wrestling and BJJ or there is one. The point is, Wrestlers seem to be better at two really important factors in an MMA fight, the weight cut and strength/conditioning. That definitely explains some of the Wreslter's success, and an opportunity for improvement in BJJ (although Anthony Johnson proves you can take the weight cut too far.)

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There is nothing to stop BJJ and Judo players from adapting to the level of intensity that wrestlers train at. For some reason the BJJ and Judo world has just never done so. I think an important point to mention though is that a strong part of that conditioning is cardio/endurance of the core, not just the strength.

There is also a lot of technique to wrestling and you see it with wrestlers who are not naturally strong. Particularly with the girls who are generally forced to compete against boys most of their careers. My daughter generally gets stuck wrestling boys who outweigh her by 10-15 lbs at some tournaments and that means a lot when you are 75 lbs. She still wins matches when she is against people who have been wrestling about as long as her but to do so she has to wrestle smart. I admit that the wrestling game needs more options for that but hey, that's why my daughter is going to be enrolled in 10th Planet to learn some ways to move people around with leverage. :)

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Originally Posted by VIVIANO

I want to see if the point about evolution applies to my original point that Wrestling is benefiting from almost three centuries of competition to isolate the most effective techniques and training methods.

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Well, I would say that it should impact it to a certain degree. Wrestling being older and such. The problem is that at the same time Wrestling has been hit very hard on the technique side because of the competitive sport side. When it comes to submissions Wrestling was not just hit, it was basically lobotomized. Thankfully it's making a comeback.

Awesome thread guys. Great conversation. This thread makes me want to seek out wrestling in addition to BJJ now, lol. (No time for that though)

Great thread. Loving the points.

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Originally Posted by jaywatkins67

All good commenets but did somebody forget about Jose Also? I'm pretty sure he's a black belt. Weidman does have a huge wrestling background but is also high level bjj belt under Matt Serra. Bottom line, today it is impossible to be succesful in MMA if you are a one trick pony. Must be well rounded. Interesting post.

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Jose and Barao are both BJJ black belts. But no one fears Aldo's Jiu Jitsu because he makes no effort to take it there. Plus, last time he was on the ground, he used the guard to mostly survive.

People fear barao's ground, but he prefers to strike, so we don't get to see it often.

Personally, my favorite guys to watch are guys who blend their BJJ with their striking like Charles Do Bronx and Tony El Cucuy. I love how one second Tony will be swinging for a marce or rolling into spider web, the next second he's knocking you out. Same with Oliveira. One second you're defending head kicks, next second you're trapped in a modified anaconda.

It's guys like that that make me feel like BJJ could do better in the UFC with a few adjustments. Tony Ferguson definitely has the right idea. 10thP4L.

Maybe they should up the bonus money for submission of the night you know from like 50 grand 100
grand that might encourage more submissions.