Lockdown: What to do when your opponent stiffens his leg and becomes "immovable"?

So I've been using the lockdown with pretty good results for quite some time now.

BUT.... recently, a guy from my gym with a rather strong back and legs (note: not a big dude, only about the same size as myself - i.e. average-sized fella) started using a rather interesting defence.

He simply stiffens his leg and drops his weight on it, which incredibly, makes him seemingly impossible to budge (even with whip ups, whip downs, and everything in-between - well, everything I know how to do anyway - he doesn't budge, and I can't move him or cut any angles under him).

From there, the option I have left (in my repertoire anyway) is to grab the overhook, abandon the lockdown and attempt a butterfly escape. This of course, worked the first few times, and now he (obviously) knows it's the only option I have left, and is ready for it - meaning I have almost no game against him when I'm at the bottom.

Pretty sure this situation comes up a lot more often in 10p schools, since everyone's using the lockdown and lockdown counters. The question I'm hoping you guys can help answer is - what can I do about this "stiffen the leg so I'm immovable" defence? Is there any way of unbalancing the guy on top, cutting angles or making the lockdown work against someone like this?

Thanks in advance for any advice guys!

Do you have the underhooks or he does? One thing I've used which helps me mix up my lockdown is alot of the Nogeuria sweeps (he shows this in his old book Guard for MMA) where oftentimes he either doesn't have an ideal lockdown, can't get the same side underhook, etc and basically he's able to still sweep/roll the opponent when done correctly. Do you have any options to Stomp or SUper Stomp? One thing Pat has been showing me recently is how versatile stomp/super stomp is for when lockdown isn't getting it done.

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Originally Posted by HerbChao

Do you have the underhooks or he does? One thing I've used which helps me mix up my lockdown is alot of the Nogeuria sweeps (he shows this in his old book Guard for MMA) where oftentimes he either doesn't have an ideal lockdown, can't get the same side underhook, etc and basically he's able to still sweep/roll the opponent when done correctly. Do you have any options to Stomp or SUper Stomp? One thing Pat has been showing me recently is how versatile stomp/super stomp is for when lockdown isn't getting it done.

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Getting the underhooks isn't a problem, but even with those underhooks, I still can't move seem to him. So yup, the stomp/super stomp become my "bail out" options (which makes my half guard/lockdown game against this dude predictable and of course, easy to stop/counter).

Those Nogeuria sweeps you mentioned sound interesting though! Haven't seen or even heard of them - any videos or material on them that I can find online? :)

If the lockdown's not working, you might have to go to traditional half and start working some sweeps from there. Get him thinking about other things, then switch back to the lockdown

I'm assuming that when you get the lockdown you stretch your legs to keep it tight?

What eddie mentioned in one of the MTS episodes and what I've used often is doing a butterfly stretch with the lockdown. instead of stretching your legs out and keeping their leg straight, what you do is keep your legs crossed like your doing a butterfly stretch and the pressure of the sides of your legs keeps him in place. when he tries to do something, then you straighten your leg. This allows you to be a lot more mobile while having a much more surprising defense. he gets nothing out of putting his weight on you and you just wait for the moment he moves then stretch your legs. it breaks his base and gives you the opportunity to move, whether it is getting underhooks, electric chair or whatever. dogfight maybe.

hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by Isaac Atley

I'm assuming that when you get the lockdown you stretch your legs to keep it tight?

What eddie mentioned in one of the MTS episodes and what I've used often is doing a butterfly stretch with the lockdown. instead of stretching your legs out and keeping their leg straight, what you do is keep your legs crossed like your doing a butterfly stretch and the pressure of the sides of your legs keeps him in place. when he tries to do something, then you straighten your leg. This allows you to be a lot more mobile while having a much more surprising defense. he gets nothing out of putting his weight on you and you just wait for the moment he moves then stretch your legs. it breaks his base and gives you the opportunity to move, whether it is getting underhooks, electric chair or whatever. dogfight maybe.

hope that helps.

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Which episode was this in?

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Originally Posted by HerbChao

Do you have the underhooks or he does? One thing I've used which helps me mix up my lockdown is alot of the Nogeuria sweeps (he shows this in his old book Guard for MMA) where oftentimes he either doesn't have an ideal lockdown, can't get the same side underhook, etc and basically he's able to still sweep/roll the opponent when done correctly. Do you have any options to Stomp or SUper Stomp? One thing Pat has been showing me recently is how versatile stomp/super stomp is for when lockdown isn't getting it done.

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+1 on fighting for the doubleunderhooks. If you can get on your toe and knee on your locked down leg, it makes this battle more winable since your can use gravity to more effectively dig for the underhook. Also develop the reflex of taking the free underhook if he posts his hand on your knee and ditches the clinch. Once you get the underhooks you want, get top-heavy and get a butterfly hook with your non-locked down knee, then stay top heavy and tri-pod your knee out of his half guard, no hand pass, use your free knee to donkey kick his thigh and pull your knee out, finishing in reverse twister side control, also referred as kesa getami.

Hope this helps. Tried to reproduce frame by frame from Eddies seminar

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

So I've been using the lockdown with pretty good results for quite some time now.

BUT.... recently, a guy from my gym with a rather strong back and legs (note: not a big dude, only about the same size as myself - i.e. average-sized fella) started using a rather interesting defence.

He simply stiffens his leg and drops his weight on it, which incredibly, makes him seemingly impossible to budge (even with whip ups, whip downs, and everything in-between - well, everything I know how to do anyway - he doesn't budge, and I can't move him or cut any angles under him).

From there, the option I have left (in my repertoire anyway) is to grab the overhook, abandon the lockdown and attempt a butterfly escape. This of course, worked the first few times, and now he (obviously) knows it's the only option I have left, and is ready for it - meaning I have almost no game against him when I'm at the bottom.

Pretty sure this situation comes up a lot more often in 10p schools, since everyone's using the lockdown and lockdown counters. The question I'm hoping you guys can help answer is - what can I do about this "stiffen the leg so I'm immovable" defence? Is there any way of unbalancing the guy on top, cutting angles or making the lockdown work against someone like this?

Thanks in advance for any advice guys!

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Damn just went back and re-read it. I didn't healize you were the guy on the bottom.

I think someone mentioned above to ditch the lockdown and go to regular half guard, subsequently fighting to get on your side and not flattened out. Maybe try to post your feet on his calf to keep his leg immobile and change the angle of your hips. If nothing else this could give you another whip down combo possibility if you have the underhooks. Its always an underhook battle though. Always. In gi, I've gotten sleeve choked a few times if I don't keep a good clinch. The tradeoff in that the gi and belt make the clinch easier. In no-gi, the space could possibly give him an opportunity to fight for the underhook using that detail of him being on his toe and knee of his locked down leg. This effectively kills the lockdown, but this becomes free cheese if we're talking about transitioning to dogfight or something or other. Hope this helps a little

Thanks guys for the advice, will definitely try them out.

Arman, you nearly had me bamboozled there - was reading your first post and trying to picture all that in my brain, and thought "man, this must be jits at another level!" Alas......... :p

Isaac, that butterfly stretch sounds really interesting. Any idea which episode it was in, or what specific technique Eddie was teaching when he said that?

Definitely check out the techniques page on the forum. Then just search lockdown and it will give you some places to look where the lockdown was specifically addressed in the MTS videos. Hopefully you can find a solution to your problem there. =)

Go to dog fight/threaten the back. If the leg that is locked down is becoming stiff and therefore is no longer applying the knee to the mat for base you should be able to take advantage of that and snake your way to the dog fight if you have the under-hook. if you don't have the under-hook, then the stomp to butterfly is usually your best bet. If he smells the dog fight coming and hits you with a hard wizzer then immediately go Plan B off his reaction. Timing is everything there as he will just reset his weight on you if your not taking advantage of the momentum.

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Originally Posted by Compella

Go to dog fight/threaten the back. If the leg that is locked down is becoming stiff and therefore is no longer applying the knee to the mat for base you should be able to take advantage of that and snake your way to the dog fight if you have the under-hook. if you don't have the under-hook, then the stomp to butterfly is usually your best bet. If he smells the dog fight coming and hits you with a hard wizzer then immediately go Plan B off his reaction. Timing is everything there as he will just reset his weight on you if your not taking advantage of the momentum.

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Darn, I've been so focused on the sweeps, stomps and the butterfly that I totally forgot about switching to the dogfight! Talk about forgetting your 101s. :x

Thanks for the pro tip, will definitely try that out!

Side note: I find that my stomp to butterfly doesn't really work with dudes who have really strong legs - their thigh squeeze is usually more powerful than my mermaid. Then I just end up stuck halfway, and sometimes just transition to traditional half for the escape shown in MTS81 (or was it 82?)

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Originally Posted by Compella

Go to dog fight/threaten the back. If the leg that is locked down is becoming stiff and therefore is no longer applying the knee to the mat for base you should be able to take advantage of that and snake your way to the dog fight if you have the under-hook. if you don't have the under-hook, then the stomp to butterfly is usually your best bet. If he smells the dog fight coming and hits you with a hard wizzer then immediately go Plan B off his reaction. Timing is everything there as he will just reset his weight on you if your not taking advantage of the momentum.

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This!

Powder keg!!! :mad::mad:

I use Pablo Popovitch's half guard as well, especially cauze it's very different from that of Eddie. So I can attack my opponent from different angles.

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Originally Posted by Compella

Go to dog fight/threaten the back. If the leg that is locked down is becoming stiff and therefore is no longer applying the knee to the mat for base you should be able to take advantage of that and snake your way to the dog fight if you have the under-hook. if you don't have the under-hook, then the stomp to butterfly is usually your best bet. If he smells the dog fight coming and hits you with a hard wizzer then immediately go Plan B off his reaction. Timing is everything there as he will just reset his weight on you if your not taking advantage of the momentum.

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That's a great answer.

I was gonna respond with some help, but nah. Compella got this.

You guys are awesome. Seriously, seriously awesome. :D

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Darn, I've been so focused on the sweeps, stomps and the butterfly that I totally forgot about switching to the dogfight! Talk about forgetting your 101s. :x

Thanks for the pro tip, will definitely try that out!

Side note: I find that my stomp to butterfly doesn't really work with dudes who have really strong legs - their thigh squeeze is usually more powerful than my mermaid. Then I just end up stuck halfway, and sometimes just transition to traditional half for the escape shown in MTS81 (or was it 82?)

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Compella's answer was top notch :) I would add though, that if your issue us that they are out "thigh squeezing" your mermaid, that you could always fake butterfly sweep them that way a bit to make them widen their knees a little bit for base which should relax the squeeze enough to get it done :)

when someone stiffens there leg against me. I rock side to side on my hips back and forth and then push up with my arms on his upper body and lift him with my legs. Pretty hard to stop when you chain it all together. So i guess MOVEMENT IS KEY!

Great answers guys ;)

Brian - That sounds really interesting, but I'm having a bit of trouble visualising the actual technique. How do I fake/threaten a butterfly sweep when I'm flat on my back with my training partner flattening me down, and all I have is an overhook and stomp?

Brent - Combine side to side (on the hip) + vertical movement, got it. Can't wait to test this out! :)

Ok guys, so I realised that getting to dogfight when a guy stiff legs me is pretty tough - primarily cuz he'll be leaning all his weight onto the lockdown-ed (or should it be locked down?) side (usually while trying to grab my arm for an Americana, if it's available).

So his body, head and weight are on the lockdown-ed side, with a stiff leg that means I can't shift his weight over to the other side. So from where my head is, I'm looking across at a really big distance between me and the side I need to get on for the dogfight.

Any fine tuning tips on getting to the dogfight from this position?

p.s. Apologies for dragging on a single question to nearly 3 pages, but I'm loving the discussion and details here. ;)

It's what we're here for.

Btw don't think that trying for a few lessons will fix it all. get in some solid drilling with it and then you'll see it working.

I always find dogfight difficult to get to, I find mixing it up with a dogfight attempt and then switching to an electric chair works well and then if you are really cool, fake dogfight to fake electric chair to real dogfight works well too.

Just keep banging on all of the doors until you smash one open. You'll probably be tapped out heaps but half guard takes heaps of work.

Are you aware of the electric rainbow? If he is your weight, you can move his base.

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Are you aware of the electric rainbow? If he is your weight, you can move his base.

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Have a video available?

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Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Are you aware of the electric rainbow? If he is your weight, you can move his base.

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I YouTube-d it and..... arrived at some really girly videos.

Yup the dude's the same weight as me (I generally don't expect to move guys heavier than me anyway, which is why this one dude is really surprising me with his ability to remain immobile in the lockdown), would love to know where I can learn that electric rainbow! (I don't recall seeing it in any MTS episode either)

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Originally Posted by Isaac Atley

It's what we're here for.

Btw don't think that trying for a few lessons will fix it all. get in some solid drilling with it and then you'll see it working.

I always find dogfight difficult to get to, I find mixing it up with a dogfight attempt and then switching to an electric chair works well and then if you are really cool, fake dogfight to fake electric chair to real dogfight works well too.

Just keep banging on all of the doors until you smash one open. You'll probably be tapped out heaps but half guard takes heaps of work.

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Yeah I love that combo too. ;) Unfortunately, it's not possible in this case though - dude's just not movable in either direction cuz of the stiff leg - which is why I'm enlisting the assistance of Nibiru warriors to help solve this particularly complex puzzle.

Wait, so you tried mixing up whip up, whip down, fancy feet to dogfight and electric chair in different orders back and forth and he is just unmovable?

I can't believe that he is impossible to move.

One option I don't recommend but can work if you are good at escaping is to just give him side mount and then escape back into full or butterfly or something.

Have you tried God father sweep or Omaha whip? No idea if it will work, just throwing some ideas out there to try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUzcdwBYdFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxmK...ature=youtu.be

funny thing is, this happened to me yesterday in competition. All I did was extend my legs, hoping maybe it would hurt him a bit (lockdown seems like a bitch and hurts sometimes so i tryed that) it didn't work, I tried it again later to whip side to side..couldn't move him again, tried godfather..nothing still couldn't do shit, then waited a bit, then all of a sudden I was able to whip him when he wasn't expecting it lol and whip back and forth maybe 4 times, couldn't submit him unfortunately then I got to side control. I was so happy, with the white belts at SAU it was much easier to get to electric chair. With the blue belts..not the same.

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Originally Posted by mountveggie

Getting the underhooks isn't a problem, but even with those underhooks, I still can't move seem to him. So yup, the stomp/super stomp become my "bail out" options (which makes my half guard/lockdown game against this dude predictable and of course, easy to stop/counter).

Those Nogeuria sweeps you mentioned sound interesting though! Haven't seen or even heard of them - any videos or material on them that I can find online? :)

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Originally Posted by gene k

Have you tried God father sweep or Omaha whip? No idea if it will work, just throwing some ideas out there to try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUzcdwBYdFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxmK...ature=youtu.be

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Fantastic stuff, especially the Godfather sweep. Thanks!

At 1:43:30 ish, this is what I did. I'm a shitty blue belt but whatever, it worked.
and 2:04:25 and this guy was a better opponent but he wasn't stalling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAlQBM7W8uE