marcelotine in the street: what would happen if i...

what would happen if i marcelotine someone clearly over the point of tapping out?
i'm sure it kills after some time, but what happens in between tapping out and killing?

since the marcelotine (aka high-elbow-guillotine) makes people tap by the pressure on the throat and not by choking...i'm real curious to know what would happen if i held on to it longer..
would he eventually pass out by not being able to take a breath?
or would he eventually pass out 'cause of the constriction of the blood flow to his brain?
and after that (when i let go and he wakes up again after a bit)? what will be up with his throat? somehow damadged for life?

i'm really hoping for some good answers. if you have experience with that..let me know please! (if your just guessing please make sure you make it clear that your just guessing not knowing!)
thx for your answer!

I can tell you that the trachea is an EXTREMELY durable structure. The cartilage there is some of the most rugged in your body.

I'm not sure what would happen if you just continued to choke it, but I guessing it would be pretty hard to make someone unconscious by just compressing it.

If you are looking for self-defense, I would think that after you get them way past the point where they would tap they are going to be extremely excited to just be out of the hold. So use that to easily transition into a blood choke. Or better yet, let them run away.

All guesses and conjecture other than the fact that the trachea is extremely durable.

Troll? And the ways i have been taught the high elbow for best results you get the deep V so it is a blood choke. Like all chokes regardless you can only go with out oxygen for so long before passing out. Assuming you let go at the time of loss of conscience your bodys automated functions would take over and you would wake up in short amount of time period. If yours squeezing hard enough to crush a windpipe i would assume your were in fear of your life and would be justified in the results of whatever the results were of the choke. This is based on my experience in BJJ and as having some medical training (EMT).

Does anybody else find it creepy that THIS is the guys first post?

I've successfully killed 3 people with the marcelotine, its legit!

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

I've successfully killed 3 people with the marcelotine, its legit!

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At once?!? Now that's LEGIT

The pain is what gets the quick tap for sure. But I'd imagine it's gotta be a blood choke otherwise he'd be able to withstand a good minute or two. But yea I mean if we could do human trials instead of lab rats for clinical research we'd know way more. Marcelo's marcellitine would probably break the guys neck

I actually prefer to get my elbow in front of the trachea, as much as possible, and make it a blood choke. I find that, for me, it's a much tighter control and the choke is really tight still.

But anyway, once the person goes out from not breathing, the lack of oxygen will begin to drastically sap the levels of ATP the cells in their body produce. This is bad. No ATP=death. So if you hold it for a good minute or two after they're out, there's a chance you'll at least cause brain damage.

But if they're out, why would you wanna keep holding on? Let's not murder people, ok?

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Originally Posted by Ross Davidson

once the person goes out from not breathing, the lack of oxygen will begin to drastically sap the levels of ATP the cells in their body produce.

But if they're out, why would you wanna keep holding on? Let's not murder people, ok?

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Especially in a real fight! Your heart is pumping, adrenal system going 100%, you body's cardio system going full blast. If you restrict O2 in that situation, blackout is easy. All the blood is going to your muscular system, not your brain.

I surmise that a calm body needs less O2 to keep the brain awake than a fully "fight mode" body does.

I bet Rickson would agree with me :) If there's a single piece of advice I've ever heard that guy suggest, it's stay calm. I suggest it's not just about conserving energy, but that it's about keeping bloodflow and O2 in your brain.

The guillotine choke is a blood choke. Instead of forming a V around your opponents trachea and closing the arteries like a RNC, you simply use your forearm as a bar that constricts both arteries at the same time. this means your forearm has to squish the trachea in order to get to both arteries, ala the pain

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Especially in a real fight! Your heart is pumping, adrenal system going 100%, you body's cardio system going full blast. If you restrict O2 in that situation, blackout is easy. All the blood is going to your muscular system, not your brain.

I surmise that a calm body needs less O2 to keep the brain awake than a fully "fight mode" body does.

I bet Rickson would agree with me :) If there's a single piece of advice I've ever heard that guy suggest, it's stay calm. I suggest it's not just about conserving energy, but that it's about keeping bloodflow and O2 in .

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Well it's a bit more complicated. If it's a blood choke, then what you suggest would be more true; the cells in the brain are not being supplied enough glucose to allow increased glycolysis or enough oxygen to receive the electrons from the ETC, and the TCA cycles are thereby deactivated in favor of a strictly glycolytic (anaerobic) ATP synthesis. This pathway only generates 2 ATP per cycle, whereas the combined amount for the TCA and ETC is 34, so the amount of usable energy in these cells drops much lower than necessary to power their functions. Anaerobic energy production is really only meant for short durations of time for this reason. Thus prolonged oxygen restriction will cause cells to stop functioning (death). This can also lead to bodily restriction of the aerobic ATP pathway, due to the brain's control centers shutting down and ceasing breathing function.

For a strictly trachea choke, it would be the same basic idea, except the entire body is being deprived of oxygen at the same time. However, blood will still be pumping glucose around the body, so the same damage is probably less likely in the same short amount of time. Plus the human body is capable of staying conscious while not breathing for minutes on end, which is impractical in a street fighting scenario. Granted, as you said, the adrenaline factor would probably come into play so holding one's breath while being choked is probably unlikely. But overall, I'd rather sink in a blood choke, put them to sleep in a matter of seconds (if properly applied), release the choke as soon as I know they're out----AVOIDING committing murder----and get away from the situation as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Ross Davidson

---AVOIDING committing murder----and get away from the situation as fast as possible.

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Yeah you mentioned this in your first post as well. It cannot be overstated. Deadly force is something to be avoided at all cost. It will change your life, and not for the better. I've seen it with people close to me, and it's not good.

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Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Yeah you mentioned this in your first post as well. It cannot be overstated. Deadly force is something to be avoided at all cost. It will change your life, and not for the better. I've seen it with people close to me, and it's not good.

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+1

Ross davidson, dropping the chem knowledge. I love me some Adenosinetriphosphate. :D

I found this article really interesting when it came to chokes. It's about the RNC but I think there are things that apply to all chokes.

http://breakingmuscle.com/martial-ar...get-choked-out

For me, marcelotines are about pain. I get my bicep to press into one side of his neck, the bony part of my forearm (right before the wrist) on the trachea/windpipe, and then my other forearm presses into the other side of his neck.

• Paired vertebral arteries: Arteries running alongside the cervical spine in the back of the neck, which also provide blood to the brain.

This is something I find really interesting because it makes it even more important to use that pressure on the back of the neck.

The things, I've found that really make it work well are:

falling back at an angle. This reduces the space on the side that has my biceps pressing into their neck which allows me to choke him better.

Twisting my hand at the right angle so my wrist pokes out, which 1. cuts down the space for his neck and 2. makes him more uncomfortable.

using the side of my chest to control their head and help the squeeze their head into my arm which once again tightens the choke

and finally, because i twist and use my body there is more room on one side which gives me better access to join up my hands and finish the choke.

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Originally Posted by Joe Mayall

The guillotine choke is a blood choke. Instead of forming a V around your opponents trachea and closing the arteries like a RNC, you simply use your forearm as a bar that constricts both arteries at the same time. this means your forearm has to squish the trachea in order to get to both arteries, ala the pain

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A standard guillotine yes, not a marcelotine. A Marcelotine uses the V.

The Marcelotine definitely is a blood choke. A lot of times you'll tap because the pressure on the throat fucking sucks, but it doesn't mean you aren't being blood choked. A lot of people seem to think that your carotids are on the sides of your neck, and that's just not the case. They aren't directly in the front, but forearm pressure on the front o the throat can still block them. There are some good examples on youtube of people going completely to sleep from the Marcelotine. I'll try to find one or two examples and post the videos.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

A standard guillotine yes, not a marcelotine. A Marcelotine uses the V.

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the marcelotine uses a "v"?? what "v" are you talking about? the elbow one? (that one is clearly not used for the marcelotine..some variations of the guillotine but not the marcelotine)
or do you mean the "v" from gripping the wrist/hand of the choking arm? (that one yes.. i just never thought it was called a "v")

marcelotine taught by eddie where you can see how he is not using an elbow-v: MTS33 at 5:02 (http://www.10thplanetjj.com/techniqu...g-grape-juice/)

or were you not serious at that point? (like with your first answer on this thread)

https://timelifeblog.files.wordpress...tedt.jpg?w=394

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Originally Posted by Mike Nall

The Marcelotine definitely is a blood choke. A lot of times you'll tap because the pressure on the throat fucking sucks, but it doesn't mean you aren't being blood choked. A lot of people seem to think that your carotids are on the sides of your neck, and that's just not the case. They aren't directly in the front, but forearm pressure on the front o the throat can still block them. There are some good examples on youtube of people going completely to sleep from the Marcelotine. I'll try to find one or two examples and post the videos.

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Nat Frankcombe from Tassie is a beast with the Marcelotine. She has a bunch of subs with it in comps with at least (from my memory) 2 girls going to sleep. Probably search for 10th Planet Melbourne or Hobart No Gi Grappling on youtube for the vids.

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Originally Posted by Marty McLaren

Nat Frankcombe from Tassie is a beast with the Marcelotine. She has a bunch of subs with it in comps with at least (from my memory) 2 girls going to sleep. Probably search for 10th Planet Melbourne or Hobart No Gi Grappling on youtube for the vids.

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Damn, she's sick!

Found the video btw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_hpTiypNmw

This would be considered a blood choke, and which has been proven by an ex-Marine that it only takes 15 seconds to make someone pass out if done properly. If it is held any longer the end result will be death. This ex-Marine committed murder by doing it to his ex-wife. It was not the Marcelotine but the end result would still be the same because all blood chokes do the same thing. Also, this is an odd question anyways, who really is trying to inquire what would happen to an individual if applied longer then sport?

Everybody knows marcelotines are only to be used in the most desperate of situations cause they make your dick fly off. All fun n games till your minus a dick.

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Originally Posted by Chris Herzog

I've successfully killed 3 people with the marcelotine, its legit!

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I can attest, I was 1 of them.

thanks a lot for the video! that cleared a lot i'd say :) thanks!