used RG for the first time

Printable View

02-19-2015, 08:49 PM
Craig Murray

used RG for the first time

Open mat tonight. After drilling everything on my curriculum for my first stripe I asked my partner to let me try to put him in Hindu control. I can't get it on my grappling dummy because it's too wide. I was unable to achieve the position without my partner really helping me to get into it. But while playing around I ended up in Jiu Claw and sat up for Omoplata.

The coach saw this and came over to my partner and I and corrected my technique to try to finish the omo. Then he asked me how I got into it in the first place. I told him Rubber Guard, and asked if he ever messed around with it. He trains and competes strictly in gi and told me that RG would be harder because of the added friction of the gi... but then he said "although Eddie Bravo wears gi pants and he pulls it off". Then he tells me it's going to be hard for me to break my opponent down in a gi.

He gets into my guard to show me. Grabs my lapel, and postures up strong. So I start fighting with his arms, swimming under and all that. After about 5 seconds of this, my gi kind of comes open and his arms are wide so he looses the pressure on my chest.

I sit up, clinch him, and sit back.

The moment my back hits the mat the hundreds of reps I've put in on the grappling dummy kick in and in one fluid motion I have him in crackhead, before I even realized what I was doing! I squeeze. He starts trying to posture out of it as I continue to squeeze him. More resisting, more squeezing. Eventually I feel his resistance weaken a little bit and I start thinking about clearing his neck, but I'm scared. I have him controlled and I really like that feeling, so I don't want to lose it. My partner who's watching even says something like "now what" and I say "I'm just going to keep him here and grind on him to wear him out". After about 15-20 seconds of this, the coach says "ok, ok, ok" and I release the guard. He looks up at me and smiles.

I can't describe how excited and elated I felt from that. Outside of RG there is literally NOTHING I could have done to him. He could submit me repeatedly at will and I would not even be able to survive it or fight him off. But I had him frozen solid with crackhead.

I'm a whitebelt. And not just a whitebelt, I'm a complete newbie. EVERYTHING they teach me I am clumsy and slow at. I'm a total mess. Except for the RG.

I still can't believe how strong it felt having him in crackhead. It was awesome.

Thank you 10p, and thank you Eddie!

(disclaimer, this coach is a bluebelt and is in my weight class, and has probably never been in a RG before)
02-19-2015, 11:23 PM
Enrique "Kiko"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

I still can't believe how strong it felt having him in crackhead. It was awesome.

So basically you went Tyrone Biggums on him.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UYwRWgiakc...-h/Tyrone1.jpg
02-20-2015, 07:11 AM
Arman Fathi

Sounds like you basically went full retard control on him. Let me give you some advice on that. Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, "Rain Man", looked retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Count toothpicks, cheat at cards. Autistic, sure. Not retarded. Then you got Tom Hanks, "Forrest Gump". Slow, yes, retarded, maybe, braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon, and he won a Ping-Pong competition. That ain't retarded. Peter Sellers, "Being There", infantile? Yes. Retarded? No. You went full retard, man. Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam". Remember? Went full retard? Went home empty-handed.
02-20-2015, 07:43 AM
Troy Yang

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Open mat tonight. After drilling everything on my curriculum for my first stripe I asked my partner to let me try to put him in Hindu control. I can't get it on my grappling dummy because it's too wide. I was unable to achieve the position without my partner really helping me to get into it. But while playing around I ended up in Jiu Claw and sat up for Omoplata.

The coach saw this and came over to my partner and I and corrected my technique to try to finish the omo. Then he asked me how I got into it in the first place. I told him Rubber Guard, and asked if he ever messed around with it. He trains and competes strictly in gi and told me that RG would be harder because of the added friction of the gi... but then he said "although Eddie Bravo wears gi pants and he pulls it off". Then he tells me it's going to be hard for me to break my opponent down in a gi.

He gets into my guard to show me. Grabs my lapel, and postures up strong. So I start fighting with his arms, swimming under and all that. After about 5 seconds of this, my gi kind of comes open and his arms are wide so he looses the pressure on my chest.

I sit up, clinch him, and sit back.

The moment my back hits the mat the hundreds of reps I've put in on the grappling dummy kick in and in one fluid motion I have him in crackhead, before I even realized what I was doing! I squeeze. He starts trying to posture out of it as I continue to squeeze him. More resisting, more squeezing. Eventually I feel his resistance weaken a little bit and I start thinking about clearing his neck, but I'm scared. I have him controlled and I really like that feeling, so I don't want to lose it. My partner who's watching even says something like "now what" and I say "I'm just going to keep him here and grind on him to wear him out". After about 15-20 seconds of this, the coach says "ok, ok, ok" and I release the guard. He looks up at me and smiles.

I can't describe how excited and elated I felt from that. Outside of RG there is literally NOTHING I could have done to him. He could submit me repeatedly at will and I would not even be able to survive it or fight him off. But I had him frozen solid with crackhead.

I'm a whitebelt. And not just a whitebelt, I'm a complete newbie. EVERYTHING they teach me I am clumsy and slow at. I'm a total mess. Except for the RG.

I still can't believe how strong it felt having him in crackhead. It was awesome.

Thank you 10p, and thank you Eddie!

(disclaimer, this coach is a bluebelt and is in my weight class, and has probably never been in a RG before)

It's great you show him respect but I wouldn't exactly call a blue belt coach... before you know it you'll hang with blue belts just fine with regular technique, but of course he could give you a lot of useful advice
02-20-2015, 07:52 AM
Craig Murray

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Yang

It's great you show him respect but I wouldn't exactly call a blue belt coach... before you know it you'll hang with blue belts just fine with regular technique, but of course he could give you a lot of useful advice

He's an assistant coach, and is helping instruct in pretty much every class I take. Calling him coach is required at my gym, since he's helping to teach. They gave him that position with good reason though, his technique is twice as sharp as any of the other blue bets I've watched.

Most of the fundamental classes at Lovato's are taught by a purple with a blue helping. Both are to be referred to as coach. But honestly, this guy is more helpful at correcting my technique and explaining than any of the purple belts who've taught me.
02-20-2015, 08:15 AM
Arman Fathi

How often does Lovato teach?
02-20-2015, 08:55 AM
Craig Murray

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

How often does Lovato teach?

From what I can tell he teaches all the advanced classes when he's not out of town for competition. I'm assuming he teaches the competition classes as well, but I have not seen one in person.

Rader teaches all the kids classes. Lovato Senior teaches a "executive" class a couple times a week for 35+ years old students.

This is based on a month being there though, so it's just rough guesses based on what I've seen so far.
02-20-2015, 09:05 AM
Arman Fathi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

From what I can tell he teaches all the advanced classes when he's not out of town for competition. I'm assuming he teaches the competition classes as well, but I have not seen one in person.

Rader teaches all the kids classes. Lovato Senior teaches a "executive" class a couple times a week for 35+ years old students.

This is based on a month being there though, so it's just rough guesses based on what I've seen so far.

Cool thx.
02-20-2015, 12:58 PM
Arman Fathi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

After about 15-20 seconds of this, the coach says "ok, ok, ok" and I release the guard. He looks up at me and smiles.

I can't describe how excited and elated I felt from that. Outside of RG there is literally NOTHING I could have done to him. He could submit me repeatedly at will and I would not even be able to survive it or fight him off. But I had him frozen solid with crackhead.

Similar thing happened to me the other day, but from the other side. New guy comes in, Brazilian, say about same age, +20 pounds on me. Says he did a little judo back in Brazil. We're doing side-mount positional sparring and the orders are to either control, mount, or take the back; no submissions. He gets north-south to me, sprawls out, and pins my chest and squeezes his elbows in tight. There was literally nothing I could do. The round ended that way. I was under him like Royler under Eddie in top-stoner. I was waving my hands and everything. Now was I in danger of a submission? Who knew what the guys sensitivity to that was, and similar to you. Perhaps he had a penchant to detect armbars or triangles better than your penchant to deliver, or maybe not. With the difference in mat time, smart money's on the blue belt. Or maybe not. But to get into that control position first was the first step. From my perspective, I was literally immobilized and the only way I'd get submitted was if the guy could detect my 'movements out of frustration' and capitalize.

Keep at it, get in a lot of mat time, stay consistent, keep it playful, stay healthy. The pieces will come together as they may. But if jiu-jitsu were a 3000 piece puzzle, you may have just found a corner piece.

Or maybe not;p
02-20-2015, 11:48 PM
Eddie Bravo

Cool story bro :-)
02-21-2015, 09:18 PM
Arman Fathi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

He trains and competes strictly in gi and told me that RG would be harder because of the added friction of the gi... but then he said "although Eddie Bravo wears gi pants and he pulls it off". Then he tells me it's going to be hard for me to break my opponent down in a gi.

He gets into my guard to show me. Grabs my lapel, and postures up strong. So I start fighting with his arms, swimming under and all that. After about 5 seconds of this, my gi kind of comes open and his arms are wide so he looses the pressure on my chest.

I sit up, clinch him, and sit back.

I was thinking about this thread in a roll earlier today. (apologize in advance for bringing Gi talk into a no-gi forum;) A trick Clark Gracie showed me a little while back that I hadn't taken advantage of enough is gripping both your hands on one side of his lapel and tugging him down, as you pull your legs in as well. Clark works the omoplata or cross choke/arm bar sequence from there, but I found it's a perfect setup for rubber guard in the gi. It doesn't matter where his hands are; you're gonna break his posture. I've found it very, very difficult for the guy to win the posture battle if he lets me get 2 on 1. The 2 on 1 is just so damn powerful. I haven't met a guy that's been able to keep his posture when I tug him in like that, even if his hands are on your hips or pinning your chest. Guy I went against fell in like everyone else had, but this was the first time I had ever applied the principle since learning the basics of rubber guard. He fell right into crackhead and eventually gave me a triangle. There was also a lot of friction preventing him from posturing up, and my understanding as to one of the main reasons rubber guard was created was because Eddie didn't have the added friction to help out. So from a gi perspective, I think rubber guard can work magic, especially with the ability to break the guys posture w/o him expecting it to happen so suddenly as with this method.
02-21-2015, 10:45 PM
Craig Murray

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arman Fathi

gripping both your hands on one side of his lapel and tugging him down,.

My natural instinct, based on my extensive career in jiujitsu going back 5 weeks, is to clinch. Getting grips and using them elaborately for extended periods is one way to play in a gi, but it seems wrong to me, and it doesn't jive with my approach (yes I have a philosophy on how I should build my JJ game, despite having basically zero mat time) :)

I'm treating a gi grip like I treat a very small toe-hole in rock climbing. Use it as a leverage point but move past it quickly, into a clinch. Don't hang out there. When I see nogi guys go at it, they really have to lunge at stuff because if they dont get a full clean clinch, the dude is out. In gi you can do a little 1-2 punch on them, grab gi and yank, BAM, grab clinch. Claw and scratch at that gi... or grab some gi as you're loosing your clinch.

I'm practicing this every day on my dummy. In Jiu Claw when I'm trying to stabilize him and get arm around waist. I'm grabbing at the gi to get myself closer to him, or to help sit myself up more, to get some leverage, trying to get against him tight with arm around waist. Maybe grab the back of his collar or a wad of gi on his shoulder to help me get up and around his neck for Imanari.

I'm going to start looking for that 2-handed lapel grip you're talking about Arman for breaking down a guy, that sounds awesome.

There is plenty of talk about added friction in a gi. I suspect that for larger guys this is very true. If you have big thick legs and arms full of bone and muscle, the amount of contact is really high, and all that gi contact creates massive friction. If you bring up mission control and your leg is dragging against the guy's back, it's going to be WAY harder to get it up. Same for double bag, same for a lot of shit.

I am so skinny my points of contact are much smaller. The amount of friction is partly a function of contact area. Getting my leg into mission control is going to harder against a guy in a gi than a guy in a rashgard, but not prohibitively so. And that friction goes both ways, pulling out of my crackhead, or invisible collar, or even ducking down to give me the omoplata, all harder for him in gi.

Is an omoplata easier to hold (or finish) in a gi or in a rashgard?

The first thing you learn in Jiu Jitsu is to not get killed. Defend yourself and prevent this guy who knows a lot more than you from tapping you. But the second thing you learn is to control someone. Once you are the one doing the controlling, the gi is now on your side. When you like the position and he doesn't, gi is your friend.

I'm pretty sure skinny flexible guy in a gi can play RG just fine. And I suspect that RG against a guy who isn't practiced at defending RG is really really bad news for the guy.
02-21-2015, 11:48 PM
Arman Fathi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

My natural instinct, based on my extensive career in jiujitsu going back 5 weeks, is to clinch. Getting grips and using them elaborately for extended periods is one way to play in a gi, but it seems wrong to me, and it doesn't jive with my approach (yes I have a philosophy on how I should build my JJ game, despite having basically zero mat time) :)
\

I apologize, I should have been more clear. Obviously we'd like to do techniques that would transfer over to no-gi as much as possible. The entire rubber guard game is dependent on breaking their posture. This is done by establishing the clinch. By breaking their posture by whichever means we know how, we can secure the clinch and go to work.

In no-gi, he doesn't have your belt and your lapels to grab on to and help him get a handle as he stands to pass your guard. Consequently, you have nothing to pull him back with. In gi, it can get pretty annoying having to break the guys grip on your lapel or your belt, so why not just fight fire with fire and yank him into you? From there, clinch him tight and work toward mission control. Don't be afraid to use the gi. But also, don't grow dependent on it. Rather, use it as a guide to help you determine where your hand positioning would be most ideal. More often than not, it's the same place you'd put your hands in no-gi, only the grip would be much more transient since there's no cloth to latch on to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Is an omoplata easier to hold (or finish) in a gi or in a rashgard? \

Gi. No question. His defense would generally be to roll out of it, and without a gi things get really slippery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Defend yourself and prevent this guy who knows a lot more than you from tapping you.

But never neglect an opportunity to be a learner first, be a sponge, and ask for feedback. No one walks into the academy trying to get tapped, but ironically it's those rolls that I've learned the most by far. Even if you roll with a guy and only get one tiny nugget of information from it that you file away for later, it was a productive training session.