https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h63oN_BhlaU
I thought some of Budo Jake's thoughts were interesting. Especially not putting anymore time into heel hooks.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h63oN_BhlaU
I thought some of Budo Jake's thoughts were interesting. Especially not putting anymore time into heel hooks.
Its a proven fact that excellent leg lockers can "Feel" your leg lock ineptitude, and respond by leaving your legs alone.
So if you stop training heel hooks... you'll be more prepared for them?
BwahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
To me, this video kind of represents a lot of the perspective of the old guard of IBJJF gi guys. I seem to hear:
--heel hooks are just another trend,
--no reason to study them more closely just because guys are using them to dominate the competition right now,
--heel hooks are just something you do to help someone get ready for something like ADCC,
--heel hooks are outside the norm in the gym and require a special agreement, and
--if you like walking you don't become involved in a lot of heelhookery.
We are probably still just in the early stages of the divergence of the IBJJF style gi centric discipline and the submission grappling style no-gi centric discipline. Eddie and Dean at ADCC 2003 was one of the first big mile markers on that road. Rodolfo and Romulo Barral getting taken out early at ADCC 2011 despite all the predictions they would dominate with minimal no-gi prep time was a more recent big one (Rodolfo famously by a Lister heelhook and Barral via loss to Kyle Griffin). Eddie's re-domination of Royler was yet another one. Interspersed around all these were a lot of other notable ADCC performances from no-gi guys like David Avellan, Jake Shields, Gilbert Melendez, Cacareco, Monson, etc. Now we have Miyao's less than predicted showing at EBI 4 (and possible leg destruction) despite strong predictions of domination. Things like this will probably start happening more and more often to IBJJF guys with less adaptable styles.
I think it's just going to get harder and harder for the old guard IBJJF gi guys to explain away these types of divergence events until eventually they will be forced to admit that the two things are separate and preparation in just IBJJF gi centric grappling will no longer adequately prepare you for the other. Who knows...maybe this new generation of heelhookers coming up will be the thing that precipitates that schism.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I also strongly believe that heel hooks can be learned and practiced pretty safely. At the same time I really can't fault someone that isn't a pro grappler or fighter to decide to not train them. Budo Jake has a nice career and trains for fun. To a lot of those guys they just decide it isn't worth the risk. I'm far from a pro grappler and I love training heel hooks, but I also know that I'm probably taking a risk that might be a little bit silly now that I'm in my 30's and I need my legs totally understand agreeing to it beforehand if it's someone you've never trained with before or if you're visiting a gym just to make sure you're playing by house rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hanley
I don't think they're a trend. I mean they've always been near the top of the most common subs list in any comp that allows them. Gracie Barra is Budo Jake's affiliation, and they are a huge organization and they seem to be a little stricter on rules and regulations than some other academies? Braulio Estima has some of the most ridiculous heel hooks you'll ever see and I've noticed he doesn't do them that much outside of ADCC. But he also does a lot of IBJJF NoGi events. So I really just think that a lot of people train for the event that's coming up. It could easily fuck someone like Braulio up if he trained heel hooks getting ready for the NoGi Europeans or something. The IBJJF needs to just make them legal for black belts. Then you wouldn't see people like Braulio or Cobrinha or Rafa training them on ADCC years and then not training them on NoGi Worlds years.
I actually think of Joao Miyao as a huge heel hook guy no-gi. It's probably his most common no-gi submission when it's allowed. Overall I agree with your post totally.
So first, ppl who drive and record films are to me a bit dochy and a danger in traffic.
Second when you are good ar sumthing you should do it in a competition. Or is his advice to Rhonda to stop doing that fad they call straight armbar?
When you start to look at an entry into a dominant leg position as a guard pass, all opposing arguments sound naive and ignorant.
Heel hooks don't hurt people. Douchebags hurt people.
Competitive considerations not-withstanding.
Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
People fear change. The rubber guard got this heat and so did the Berimbolo. The k nay difference now, it that heel hooks have been around much longer, so these guys sound more like quacks than before.
correction:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arman Fathi
Heel hooks don't hurt people, people that don't take the time to invest into understanding heel hooks, hurt themselves.
You know, I don't even see the comparison to berimbolo for real. It's a transition.
I now look at entries into ashi, double outside ashi, the wedge, etc as guard passes, like I mentioned above. I see the transitions within the control comparable to maintaining side or transitioning to mount or back, which are like the honey hole or leg knot. You can chase a heel just like you can chase a neck or an arm. You can switch a heel hook to a kneebar and back, just like a kimura can lead to an armbar, triangle, or omo.
You can beat their guard without passing it. If you don't want that option, then I don't understand your motives to begin with. Oh wells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
Exactly! When someone makes comments likes Jake it makes it crystal clear that they don't understand the intricacies of the leg lock positioning and the submissions themselves, there is an entire system that is DEEP! Its just not one position or one submission.
"Because I like walking."
Well I also like wiping my ass and breathing, but I still practice kimuras, armbars, and chokes. No sense..
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
A lot of the old guard gi-centric IBJJF guys will never understand. But, this (^) is the key to helping everyone else understand.
I've effectively already passed your guard if I'm in 4-11, SOA, DOA, the Knot, 50/100, Reilly's positions 1-3, or etc.
(I'm accepting of course that there is a spectrum of dominance among those enumerated leg positions as well as significant overlap in terms of nomenclature).
Never understood why jiu Jitsu players bitch about heel hooks being too dangerous. Sambo practitioners been doing heel hooks for 90 years now and we never hear them complain about any injuries. Like any other submission out there, as long as you train it the right way and understand it, you and your training partners should be fine.
I'm afraid the heel hook is going to ruin No GI grappling. The move is almost to dominant. I don't want to see the same move every match. Hope I'm wrong.
Ruin? What if someone heelhooks Kron? or if someone hooked Marcelo in his prime?
Like Sean said and Chris has known. The revolution is eminent. The legs are the largest limbs on the body. Its crazy rules and preferences that has taken grappling this long to see it. Effectiveness and truth will never ruin anything.
But yes, people will adapt. Its what we do.
I watched Dean Lister tap Marcelo almost at will at a seminar here in Cali years ago... All foot locks.
Obviously they weren't rolling hard but Marcelo never got Dean.
IMO, the only REAL danger with practicing Foot/Leg Locks is they are detrimental to your guard passing skill because you don't really have to pass the guard with good leg locks. BTW by Pass the Guard I mean getting to side control, mount, knee on stomach, or back control.
Jeff, Im sure you would also agree that having a killer le game opens up passes, no?
Sweet info on the Marelo/Lister session. Im sure weight class had a factor, but still..
Guess your right. I do think this part of the evolution will help bring BJJ back to MMA. (Being that the move is so powerful.)Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
Yes of course!Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby rivers
They compliment each other. What I tell my students at first is to practice entries from your guard. Then get a few attacks from the guard and mix it up. When they defend the leg lock convert to a pass and vise versa.
Wow, very interesting. It makes perfect sense to me, but I'll bet it would surprise a lot of gi guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Baldwin
Ftfy:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Thaxton
Haha! I think out load sometimes!
I rolled all weekend with guys going for heel hooks and we never play with heel hooks at my school. I got heel hooked several times and never got hurt. The guys knew what they were doing and I taped. It's that simple. Sean Applegate is now my footlock guru!