Wisconsin teachers

This is a LONG one guys. Sorry. I'm a dork. That's the way I roll.

I've spent more of my day than is reasonable on Facebook (sick today :( ) mulling over the union fight going on in Wisconsin. I was watching The Daily Show this morning and there was clip of a commentator on Fox decrying how overpaid the teachers are at an average salary of $51,000 (with benefits that jumps to about $70,000). So I though I'd do some math. The following is excerpted from my musings on FB:


Would you, as a parent, pay $5 an hour for a babysitter? I know people who pay a lot more than that but the math is a lot easier at $5 an hour. So let's take the taxes out of the equation altogether and say each parent should only pay for THEIR child and pay the going rate for a babysitter at $5/hr. Some schools have longer days and some shorter so we'll assume there are only ACTUALLY kids in the room for six class periods per day (why pay a babysitter to not watch your kids?). Class size varies considerably at many schools but 30 is a nice round number that's pretty close to average. Most American school districts only run for nine months out of the year but classes are only five days a week. So:

$5 per hour
6 hours per day
30 kids per class
5 days per week
36 weeks per school year

= $162,000 per year.

Seems like $51,000 is pretty good deal for the taxpayer to get a degreed professional educating their kids. We could always just hire babysitters if you'd rather. They're only $5 an hour.

For each parent the math breaks down as follows:

$5 per hour
6 hours per day
5 days per week
36 weeks per year

= $5,400 per year.

How much is private school tuition again?

Sidebar: Who the hell is going to take $5 an hour to babysit? I don't know any self-respecting 15 year-old who would denigrate themselves to take $5 an hour to watch your kids for six straight hours.

Absolutely there needs to be reforms -- for example, the ability to remove a lousy teacher -- but $5 an hour per kid seems like more than enough to cover salary and benefits.

For the years 2004-5 the state of Wisconsin spent $10,141 per student. That's $9.39 per hour per child using my previous assumptions about class size and school year length. That's $304,230 per classroom of 30 kids. If we gave $100,000 per year to each teacher in salary and benefits that still leaves $204,230 PER CLASSROOM PER YEAR that seems to just be disappearing.

Now it seems to me there are a LOT of places you can cut without touching teachers' salary and benefits at all. We could cut $100,000 per classroom per year and still have another $104,230 PER CLASSROOM for all other expenses. I admit I don't know how much it costs to keep a classroom open and functioning, but I have a hard time believing that it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to keep the lights on in each room. If a single mother can feed, clothe, and shelter her child on a salary of less than $40,000 per year it seems like we could educate that child for less than $204,230.

The problem isn't the teachers; it's the voluminous waste in the system. The teachers aren't the waste and they're being treated like they are. That's my problem.

If we use the same math using my first set of assumptions and work backward from a salary of $51,000, that works out to $0.47 per child per hour. Forty-seven cents an hour to teach. If we include their luxurious benefits package, that brings it up to just under $0.65 per hour per child. Do you know ANYONE who would take on the responsibility of overseeing the health, well-being, and education of a child for sixty-five cents an hour? Do you know anyone with a masters degree (which is at least required by NYS; I don't know about Wisconsin) who would work for sixty-five cents an hour? Bangladeshi fish mongers do better than $0.65 an hour. You can barely get a Thai kid to sew together Nikes in a sweatshop for that.

The unions have certainly caused their share of problems, but overpaying teachers isn't one of them.

I am orginally from Wisconsin, and I was talking to friend back home yesterday. He was bringing me up to speed on all that has transpired in the Land of Cheese and Beer. The real fight is not with the propsed cuts in pay and benefits, but the added measures attached to this bill, which would strip the Unions of their collective bargining power now and in the future, basically eliminating the Unions and everything they have achieved over the last nearly 100 years. The Unions understand that is these thin economic times that everyone must make compromises, but they do not want to lose their ability to protect their members rights. Besides, the reduction in pay and benifits is a fiscal issues and the Governor of Wisconsin is doing his best to balance the budget. Removing the collective bargining powers of the Unions has no effect on the impending budget deficit.

I prefer to determine a salary by hours worked. Teachers, who work for public schools with a traditional calendar, get A SHIT LOAD of days off. How many people, do you know who get a week of for Christmas? A week for Spring break? Tons of holidays and breaks through out the year, and I wont even get to Summer.

Teaching is a tough job, but it has other rewards ( I feel most people who get into the profession do not do so simply for high pay) as well as a pretty damned awesome schedule. Most people work what. 240-250 days a year? Most teachers have calendars that are more on the order of 180-195. So, for what the WI teachers are paid, I think they are doing great. Overpaid? I dont know about that, but at the same time.........taken in context, they are well paid regarding public school teachers (top 20 if I remember correctly) and get a pretty nice schedule.

Many of these days off are spent learning/training for the job. Many teachers also end up working long hours because of activities too. Also,only prison guards get more verbal abuse! I doubt that most people could spend a day with a class full of kids. It's a super tough job that takes an education. Also,this is not just about teachers,prison guards,janitors,kitchen staff,drivers and more will all lose their barganing rights. All state employees that are not Cops or Firefighters. Some may have it good,but a lot of them are just ordinary people. Most teachers could take their degree and find better work in the private sector,where they would,yes,work summers. But would only work 8 hours a day instead of the 10-12 they do.

[QUOTE=D.Stachovak;44804] Most teachers could take their degree and find better work in the private sector/QUOTE]

... sorry but.. LOL

What started the whole thing for me was hearing that asshole on Fox talk about how overpaid they are. The teachers (and everyone else) were willing to make concessions on everything but collective bargaining which is not unreasonable at all. Then this ass-pirate has to go screaming about their "luxurious" pay and benefits. It got me thinking: Hmmm. I know several teachers and they work long hours. They don't get paid by the hour. I wondered how much they would make if we paid them like you'd pay a cheap-ass babysitter -- per kid, only by the hour, and only for the hours they are actually in the room with kids (so the math includes those summers off and the hours of the day not spent teaching; that means the argument that they get all of that time off is irrelevant to the math in this case.). That worked out at $5 an hour per kid to $162,000 a year. So the argument that they are overpaid is patently ridiculous.

Even including their "luxurious" benefits they are making less than half of what they would if each parent had to pay for their own kid at five bucks an hour. And that works out to a lot less money than they're paying in taxes for those teacher salaries and benefits.

Cutting the budget is important in tough fiscal times but when you cut you need to mindful of what it is you're cutting. I don't cut my budget at home by deciding I don't need food. I make small cuts in wasteful areas until my budget comes back in line. It's pretty clear that Wisconsin is spending a shit-ton of money per student and a very, very small fraction of that is going to the teachers. So it seems to me the teachers were being pretty generous to offer pay and benefit concessions when they aren't even a small fraction of the total school budget. To then say "We also want to take away your right to fight back when we screw you again" is just a huge insult. It's no wonder they've flooded the capitol building.

My sister is a professor in Madison and this issue is not just about teachers it is about all the unions up there. But teachers should get paid more for having to deal with assholes like me when I was in school.

Teachers know about the job before they take it, they need to stop whining and get back to work, or get out of the way so someone who wants to work can have their job.

Unions are gangster thugs that need to be broke up, they have gotten out of control.

My 2 cents :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt

Would you, as a parent, pay $5 an hour for a babysitter? I know people who pay a lot more than that but the math is a lot easier at $5 an hour. So let's take the taxes out of the equation altogether and say each parent should only pay for THEIR child and pay the going rate for a babysitter at $5/hr. Some schools have longer days and some shorter so we'll assume there are only ACTUALLY kids in the room for six class periods per day (why pay a babysitter to not watch your kids?). Class size varies considerably at many schools but 30 is a nice round number that's pretty close to average. Most American school districts only run for nine months out of the year but classes are only five days a week. So:

$5 per hour
6 hours per day
30 kids per class
5 days per week
36 weeks per school year

= $162,000 per year.

Seems like $51,000 is pretty good deal for the taxpayer to get a degreed professional educating their kids. We could always just hire babysitters if you'd rather. They're only $5 an hour.

For each parent the math breaks down as follows:

$5 per hour
6 hours per day
5 days per week
36 weeks per year

= $5,400 per year.

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Would you as a jiu jitsu student pay $30 per hour for privates with a bad ass brown belt like Herzog? I bet he charges more than that. Lets cut you a break at a rate of $20


for you this breaks down as follows:
1.5 hr class
3 nights a week
4 weeks a month

=$360

I will pm Coach Herzog about your new rate plan.

Baby sitters charge for %100 attention per hr. My kids are not getting 6hrs of attention from anybody at there school.

If teacher puts in 8hrs a day
5 days a week
36 weeks per year

that's 1440 hrs a year. At 51,000 dollars a year they are making $35.42 dollars an hr if you factor in there benefits that's $48.61 per hr that seems reasonable for a four year degree.

Neither of our calculations take into consideration all factors like Holidays or cost of living.(51,000 is a pretty good salary in Tx. probably doesn't go as far in NY) The point is you are over simplifying a complicated economic scenario.

Some other points:

ONE:
the governor of WI isn't stripping all collective bargaining rights - teachers unions will still be able to negotiate wages under collective bargaining rules. Pensions and benefits would be removed from collective bargaining. and there a good reason why that is important.

if anyone is bored, read this - it's from a WI local paper - http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/111152709.html

here's the important bit:

Quote:

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Districts that buy WEA Trust plans average $1,665 a month for family premiums, according to their state association, while those choosing other carriers average $1,466. The difference is greatest where taxpayers cover the whole premium.

Milton was paying $48,301 more in premiums for every month that it couldn’t switch from WEA Trust to a pair of plans from Madison-based Dean Health and Janesville-based MercyCare that it said were comparable....In Wisconsin, school districts can’t change health carriers – even if they keep benefits the same – without negotiating. And teachers unions have been very partial to keeping WEA Trust.

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Basically the union was running a monopoly on benefit plans and charging more for equivalent plans. and the government pretty much can't do anything about it.

TWO:
anyone who says it's not teacher pay that's causing state government deficits doesn't understand that it's not annual pay that's the problem, it's defined benefit pensions and retirement benefits that's the problem. I can't speak for WI teachers but NYS teacher retire around 55 with almost full pay and benefits that they keep until they die....which is about 30 years. Also, teachers don't contribute to the pension - or contribute a tiny amount. Basically 30 years worth of salary and benefits for free. I would be curious to figure out how that figures into the original babysitting calculations. Wi is running close to 300 million in unfunded obligations to the teacher pension fund. that is a huge problem for the short and long term budget of the state - which collective bargaining ushered in.

I could go into how unions prevent changes that would improve education like school choice - which would allow awesome teachers to get better private jobs, and leave crap teacher in the schools that close due to low enrollment. Or how about job performance linked to pay (or even keeping a job, that's just crazy) or how about removing the last-in/first out for teacher lay-offs which allows crappy tenured teachers to keep their jobs, while young, relevant, excited teachers get bumped.

just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

Would you as a jiu jitsu student pay $30 per hour for privates with a bad ass brown belt like Herzog? I bet he charges more than that. Lets cut you a break at a rate of $20


for you this breaks down as follows:
1.5 hr class
3 nights a week
4 weeks a month

=$360

I will pm Coach Herzog about your new rate plan.

Baby sitters charge for %100 attention per hr. My kids are not getting 6hrs of attention from anybody at there school.

If teacher puts in 12hrs a day
5 days a week
36 weeks per year

that's 2160 hrs a year. At 51,000 dollars a year they are making $23.61 dollars an hr if you factor in there benefits that's $32.41 per hr that seems reasonable for a four year degree plus a masters and a teaching certificate.

Neither of our calculations take into consideration all factors like Holidays or cost of living.(51,000 is a pretty good salary in Tx. probably doesn't go as far in NY) The point is you are over simplifying a complicated economic scenario.

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Fixed.

Your babysitter gives your kids 100% attention the whole time? I certainly hope they are paid well. Every babysitter I've ever met did little more than make sure they are fed and alive when you get home. Did your babysitter also teach them long division while you were out?

Of course it's an oversimplification. So is saying they are overpaid and greedy because they make slightly more than the average middle class worker (that's especially galling when it's said by a pundit who makes MUCH, MUCH more for doing little beyond criticizing people because they differ politically. At least a teacher contributes positively to society. What does a pundit do that contributes to the benefit of anyone at all?).

Obviously, a lot more goes into deducing a salary from a budget. My point, again, was not to say that they SHOULD be paid $5 an hour per child, but rather that even a gross oversimplification demonstrates that they clearly are NOT overpaid; not for what they are expected to do, the responsibility they have, the shit they take day in and day out, and the work it takes to become a teacher in the first place. Yes, it's a reasonable living wage. After 7 years of advanced education and a licensing exam I would expect to paid a reasonable living wage, wouldn't you? They also offered to take a pay cut. And they were repaid by being called greedy and overpaid. That's plain old fashioned bullshit in my opinion.

Sidebar: Coach is definitely worth $360 a month.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ron Almeida

Teachers know about the job before they take it, they need to stop whining and get back to work, or get out of the way so someone who wants to work can have their job.

Unions are gangster thugs that need to be broke up, they have gotten out of control.

My 2 cents :)

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Isn't that pretty much true of every job? You pretty well know what you're getting into, so no matter what happens you should just shut up and take it, right? I mean hey, you sign up to be a miner you just accept you're gonna get black lung disease. Too damn bad if your health insurance is cancelled because you got sick. You knew what you were getting into when you signed up. It's not it's news; that's been going on for generations. Get out of the way so someone else can dig that coal and quit your bitching. You join the Army in the middle of two wars you know you might end up with a traumatic head injury. If the Army decides your head injury is only worth 30% disability and you end up homeless, well hey, you knew that when you signed up. It's not like nobody knows soldiers are getting screwed out of lifetime benefits every day; it's been in the news for years. It's a dangerous job and if you don't like it get out of the way and let someone else do the job, right?

Of course not. That's patently ridiculous. Simply because a job comes with hardships does not mean those working the job don't have the right to petition for a redress of grievances (I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Oh yeah. The Constitution...). Would you call miners greedy bastards because they get paid well enough and they know what they're getting into? Would you call soldiers whiners for not being content with the pittance the Pentagon shells out each month to them? I wouldn't. All the unions are asking for is to not have their right to bargain collectively taken away from them. They already agreed to the other concessions. What is so unreasonable about that?

I'm sorry guys. I've been cooped up in this house for the last two days with a Crohn's flare and I'm feeling hostile. I'm nauseated, I can't eat hardly anything at all (but I'm starving), and I'm totally out of the one thing that makes that better (and my guy is out of town until Friday). I don't mean to be a prick. I just need to get on the mats and have a good roll and I'll be fine. No hard feelings fellas. :)

i can't speak for anyone else, but i didn't think you were being a prick - i thought it was just a heated discussion, i don't think anyone was being too out of line.

Hope to see you on the mats soon Jason, we can duke it out then;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt

I'm sorry guys. I've been cooped up in this house for the last two days with a Crohn's flare and I'm feeling hostile. I'm nauseated, I can't eat hardly anything at all (but I'm starving), and I'm totally out of the one thing that makes that better (and my guy is out of town until Friday). I don't mean to be a prick. I just need to get on the mats and have a good roll and I'll be fine. No hard feelings fellas. :)

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Dude? no hard feelings here! we are just shooting the shit on internet forum. I hope you get some natural medicine soon and feel better. I concede to a lot of what you say. I don't believe teachers are overpaid I just thought your original post was a little to bleeding heart for these teachers comparing them to factory workers in third world countries and shit lmao Like Ron said they know what they are getting into. My sister In law is going to school to be a teacher and she's already crying about how they are under paid and I think that's ridiculous. I just want to yell at her "either change your degree or stfu!"(but the wife wouldn't like that to much) They probably have enough pity for their selves and don't deserve yours. By the way I appreciate your intelligent and stimulating posts.

Teachers DO NOT average 8 hour days. How many teachers do you guys know personally? I know a couple, and the only time they are at work more than 8 is a special activity (for which they get compensated to engage in, coaching/chaperone/etc) or during their first year, when they are learning thier job. A life long friend of mine, gets to work just before school starts and he is out the door within 10 mins of the bell ringing. He is one of the best teachers around (he has won several awards, and is respected wholly by his peers) but he makes no BS arguments about his job being tough. He does say, the first year or two is hard, because it isnt an easy job (no "job" is easy, and alot of teachers to be think their job will be easy) and alot of the kids starting out are not getting similar starting salaries to what other professions may start at.

When I said how many days they work, I figured in teacher work days and planning days. Teachers, do have a job that can be tough (trying to "parent" kids who in some cases have zero parenting/adult guidance and get dropped into their laps, and dealing with a general apathetic vibe at times from parents and kids) but one thing, for sure, isnt rough about the job, and that is the hours worked. Any of you buying that 12 hour a day thing, dont know any teachers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt

Isn't that pretty much true of every job? You pretty well know what you're getting into, so no matter what happens you should just shut up and take it, right? I mean hey, you sign up to be a miner you just accept you're gonna get black lung disease. Too damn bad if your health insurance is cancelled because you got sick. You knew what you were getting into when you signed up. It's not it's news; that's been going on for generations. Get out of the way so someone else can dig that coal and quit your bitching. You join the Army in the middle of two wars you know you might end up with a traumatic head injury. If the Army decides your head injury is only worth 30% disability and you end up homeless, well hey, you knew that when you signed up. It's not like nobody knows soldiers are getting screwed out of lifetime benefits every day; it's been in the news for years. It's a dangerous job and if you don't like it get out of the way and let someone else do the job, right?

Of course not. That's patently ridiculous. Simply because a job comes with hardships does not mean those working the job don't have the right to petition for a redress of grievances (I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Oh yeah. The Constitution...). Would you call miners greedy bastards because they get paid well enough and they know what they're getting into? Would you call soldiers whiners for not being content with the pittance the Pentagon shells out each month to them? I wouldn't. All the unions are asking for is to not have their right to bargain collectively taken away from them. They already agreed to the other concessions. What is so unreasonable about that?

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My copy of the constitution is in the other room in a pile of books, But I guess I missed the right to redress work grievances........so quote it up for me if you would.

ya, I don't believe there are any teachers working 12 hrs a day unless they choose to. I had a teacher in high school that stayed after like 2 days a week and tutored anybody who wanted it but he was one of those rare cool teachers you never forget.

Like I said in the earlier post, you know the job before you go into it, if its going to be to hard for you maybe you should apply for something else.

What do us self employed people get? nothing, not even unemployment if work gets slow, and I dont even whine about it.

I am so tired of people whining about everything, just shut up and do it or get out of the way so someone else who wants to can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stlnl

My copy of the constitution is in the other room in a pile of books, But I guess I missed the right to redress work grievances........so quote it up for me if you would.

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Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Government employees petitioning the government for a redress of work grievances.

Sorry, but unions have shit to do with that amendment, you know it too. Last I checked, no one is losing the right to redress a grievance/assemble. If you really think that was an amendment to protect a union......we may as well end this talk now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Wylie

Dude? no hard feelings here! we are just shooting the shit on internet forum. I hope you get some natural medicine soon and feel better. I concede to a lot of what you say. I don't believe teachers are overpaid I just thought your original post was a little to bleeding heart for these teachers comparing them to factory workers in third world countries and shit lmao Like Ron said they know what they are getting into. My sister In law is going to school to be a teacher and she's already crying about how they are under paid and I think that's ridiculous. I just want to yell at her "either change your degree or stfu!"(but the wife wouldn't like that to much) They probably have enough pity for their selves and don't deserve yours. By the way I appreciate your intelligent and stimulating posts.

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Thanks man, I appreciate it. It's been said before and I'll say it again: This is what I love about 10th Planet. Any other forum and this just degenerates into name calling and trash talking. :)

Thank you too Ashley. :) I'll be in soon. I might even make it in tonight. I'm just moving real slow right now because I haven't had much resembling food in two days and my energy level is near zero. It takes a lot out of me and getting my engine going again can be tough. I think I'm a diesel, not an F1...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stlnl

Sorry, but unions have shit to do with that amendment, you know it too. Last I checked, no one is losing the right to redress a grievance/assemble. If you really think that was an amendment to protect a union......we may as well end this talk now.

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Well actually since they are government workers and their right to bargain collectively is being taken away from them by their employer and they have assembled peaceably in the state capitol, it seems apropos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason Hyatt

Well actually since they are government workers and their right to bargain collectively is being taken away from them by their employer and they have assembled peaceably in the state capitol, it seems apropos.

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Again, collective bargaining, has zilch to do with the amendment........as you already said, they are assembling, and no one is stopping them. Not a constitutional issue, even the ACLU wouldnt try to make a case.