throws and takedowns at the worlds..not..

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06-06-2011, 07:00 AM
TrajdenKane

throws and takedowns at the worlds..not..

I am a huge fan of BJJ and 10th planet JJ..but I am a blackbelt in Judo. I can not believe at the BJJ worlds (and I watched the whole thing) how few throw or takedown attempts there actually were. It seemed like a battle of who could pull guard or half guard first..even at the black belt level. If that is what modern BJJ has come to, they will become irrelevant when they make the transition to MMA..you gotta have takedowns. Half of the black belt matches had both guys pulling guard simultaneously, sitting and staring at each other, and then leg wrestling each other..wtf..
06-06-2011, 09:30 AM
Salami

I pondered similar thoughts there.
06-06-2011, 09:36 AM
Jason Mallory

I would agree that BJJ competitors that do not have good takedown/defense as well as good striking from stand-up can become irrelevant in MMA.
06-06-2011, 09:45 AM
Daniel Patrick

Exactly. Very little striking as well.
06-06-2011, 10:17 AM
AJ Camacho

It feels that over a hundred years ago, that Jigoro Kano felt the same way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo
Newaza effectiveness and ease of learning by smaller opponents started to change the way judo matches evolved. It was easy to train a Judoka in newaza (ground fighting) and have him stop the most fit opponent from a rival school, so Kodokan Judo started to be dominated by newaza fighting. Over time there was so much emphasis was on newaza, due to its success in competition, that Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, introduced new rules limiting the amount of time the judoka could stay on the ground.

I totally agree with you that takedowns are a huge blind spot in sports BJJ however it's just not the point of sport BJJ. Try looking at the issue the other way, why must you try to take someone down with a throw at all?
06-06-2011, 10:53 AM
Chris Herzog

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

It feels that over a hundred years ago, that Jigoro Kano felt the same way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo
Newaza effectiveness and ease of learning by smaller opponents started to change the way judo matches evolved. It was easy to train a Judoka in newaza (ground fighting) and have him stop the most fit opponent from a rival school, so Kodokan Judo started to be dominated by newaza fighting. Over time there was so much emphasis was on newaza, due to its success in competition, that Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, introduced new rules limiting the amount of time the judoka could stay on the ground.

I totally agree with you that takedowns are a huge blind spot in sports BJJ however it's just not the point of sport BJJ. Try looking at the issue the other way, why must you try to take someone down with a throw at all?

For the record that above statement is bullshit, Kano never put a time limit on ground fighting. That was the IJF years after Kano died. Kano was a proponent of keeping Judo well rounded and encouraged both Newaza (ground techniques) and Tachiwaza (standing techniques).
06-06-2011, 11:02 AM
AJ Camacho

Yeah, I was wondering about that. There was no citation to it and all linked articles were missing. So how much of this Kosen Judo stuff is true and how does it relate with the actual timeline? Or when exactly did Newaza fall out of favor and were there specific people behind the rule change?
06-06-2011, 11:06 AM
J Grooms

Coach Herzog droppin knowledge!! .... and for the record, I love takedowns, I wish they was more prevalent in modern bjj.
06-06-2011, 11:07 AM
Danny Stolfi

If MMA is their goal, then yes they should work takedowns. But for BJJ competition, pulling guard works just fine for getting it to the ground asap.
06-06-2011, 11:09 AM
Muhammad Abdou

imo the only reason why pulling guard is so prevalent in comps is because they don't allow slamming in guard.. for some reason...
honestly i dont understand why they dont. you're allowed to go for maximum impact hip throws but you have to be as gentle as possible the moment someone wraps their legs around you?
06-06-2011, 11:10 AM
Chris Herzog

Kosen is literally a group of dojos(all were university clubs),I think there were 7, don't quote me on it whose sole purpose was to help the development of Judo Newaza. Its wasn't separate from Judo, it was just the focus of their training was on newaza. Much as most Judo schools in the US focus on Tachiwaza. There are no separate ranks for Kosen its not a different style, just and approach to training. Similar to different splits in the Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Heilo's group vs Carlson's group. If someone claims to have a rank specifically in Kosen Judo, your bullshit detector should go off, it’s still all Judo.
06-06-2011, 11:31 AM
AJ Camacho

Now was Newaza discouraged, via the newer Judo rules, because it dominated matches or just because people thought that throws looked cooler?
06-06-2011, 11:41 AM
Chris Herzog

Newaza was never discouraged.However there is some wierd belief by the IFJ that in order to promote Judo as an Olympic Sport and to increase its popularity they needed the emphasis to be on throwing, and that the spectators didn't want to see guys rolling around on the mat, they wanted to see spectatular throws. What they never figured out, its doesn't matter what the spectators wanted, as there were only 3 or 4 of them in the stands or at home watching anyway.
06-06-2011, 12:51 PM
stlnl

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrajdenKane

I am a huge fan of BJJ and 10th planet JJ..but I am a blackbelt in Judo. I can not believe at the BJJ worlds (and I watched the whole thing) how few throw or takedown attempts there actually were. It seemed like a battle of who could pull guard or half guard first..even at the black belt level. If that is what modern BJJ has come to, they will become irrelevant when they make the transition to MMA..you gotta have takedowns. Half of the black belt matches had both guys pulling guard simultaneously, sitting and staring at each other, and then leg wrestling each other..wtf..

This may be a shock, but a whole lot of top level BJJ guys, have zero interest in competing in MMA. Also a large number of BJJ guys (esp the brazilians, Judo is fairly popular in Brazil) do alot of Judo and are BB's themselves. However, a throw that can get you an ippon in a Judo match, can also have a guy half on your back as soon as you land in BJJ.

I have never been a big fan of the guard pulling, but in BJJ it has its merits, mainly in that with a gi on, alot of takedowns and throws can compromize you a bit in transition as you hit the mat, this along with the fact that the guard with a gi on is a whole different ballgame than say in MMA where you have less grips and get hit in the mouth.
06-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Landon DuMar

There seems to be more takedowns in NoGi. In gi they love pulling guard. Just put that gi away and start working on your wrestling.
06-06-2011, 01:09 PM
Joseph Connolly

It's all about playing to the rules. Throws and takedowns involve too much risk. It is stupid.
06-06-2011, 01:14 PM
Eddie Bravo

Pulling guard is for queens
06-06-2011, 01:35 PM
bobby rivers

Call me Elizabeth.
06-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Eric "Tiger Blood" Safier

My Cat prefers to pull guard ... But I really don't bame him ....His takedown defense sucks!
06-06-2011, 01:48 PM
Mike Nall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad Abdou

imo the only reason why pulling guard is so prevalent in comps is because they don't allow slamming in guard.. for some reason...
honestly i dont understand why they dont. you're allowed to go for maximum impact hip throws but you have to be as gentle as possible the moment someone wraps their legs around you?

Man just ask Brian Cimms. His career was ended because he was slammed maybe 2 feet off the ground from the guard. That shit is so much more dangerous I can't believe youre comparing it to a hip throw.

Guard slamming can break backs, necks, give concussions, the list goes on.

Also, there was almost NO closed guard this weekend at the black belt level. Almost all variations of the half guard, where it's much more difficult to try to pick someone up and slam them. In fact, in the Absolute division not one match that was aired had any closed guard at all.
06-06-2011, 01:55 PM
Justin W.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteMike2k9

Man just ask Brian Cimms. His career was ended because he was slammed maybe 2 feet off the ground from the guard. That shit is so much more dangerous I can't believe youre comparing it to a hip throw.

Guard slamming can break backs, necks, give concussions, the list goes on.

Also, there was almost NO closed guard this weekend at the black belt level. Almost all variations of the half guard, where it's much more difficult to try to pick someone up and slam them. In fact, in the Absolute division not one match that was aired had any closed guard at all.

I'm not sure why but women seem to never really play open guard. Leticia played a little but almost all the women, loved closed guard.
06-06-2011, 02:16 PM
AJ Camacho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZblq0GluNE
06-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Muhammad Abdou

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteMike2k9

Man just ask Brian Cimms. His career was ended because he was slammed maybe 2 feet off the ground from the guard. That shit is so much more dangerous I can't believe youre comparing it to a hip throw.

Guard slamming can break backs, necks, give concussions, the list goes on.

Also, there was almost NO closed guard this weekend at the black belt level. Almost all variations of the half guard, where it's much more difficult to try to pick someone up and slam them. In fact, in the Absolute division not one match that was aired had any closed guard at all.

i dont wanna debate or anything, but i just wanna understand, how is a guard slam much different from a hip throw, besides for the fact that guy has his legs wrapped around you
06-06-2011, 05:23 PM
Robert Sevigny

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrajdenKane

how few throw or takedown attempts there actually were.

the problem with judo throws are they expose your back and if you mess up the throw/takedown your already in a bad spot without really playing any of your bjj game
06-06-2011, 07:39 PM
AJ Camacho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad Abdou

i dont wanna debate or anything, but i just wanna understand, how is a guard slam much different from a hip throw, besides for the fact that guy has his legs wrapped around you

One is a throw and the other is a slam. A throw is controlled.. as slam is, well, a slam. The sole intention of a slam is to impact the back of the person's head into the floor. Blunt impacts to the head have no place in a grappling competition.
06-06-2011, 08:28 PM
Chris Herzog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sevigny

the problem with judo throws are they expose your back and if you mess up the throw/takedown your already in a bad spot without really playing any of your bjj game

The problem with absolute statements, is that they are usually wrong.

There are 67 throws (not counting any varitions) in the Judo syllabus, less than a 3rd of those throws expose your back to your opponent. There are many throws that are used in BJJ by high level guys. Many BJJers cross train Judo in Brazil (Brazil usually has a good showing in Judo at international events).
06-06-2011, 09:28 PM
Muhammad Abdou

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ Camacho

One is a throw and the other is a slam. A throw is controlled.. as slam is, well, a slam. The sole intention of a slam is to impact the back of the person's head into the floor. Blunt impacts to the head have no place in a grappling competition.

so does slamming refer exclusively to throws onto the back of the head? i didnt know that..
in that case, what would you call an impact onto their back while they are holding closed guard?