I have a leg lock question. So I'm in 50/50 with an outside leg triangle. How can I safely transition to the high side outside ankle lock? I always get caught in a reverse heel hook....:confused:
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I have a leg lock question. So I'm in 50/50 with an outside leg triangle. How can I safely transition to the high side outside ankle lock? I always get caught in a reverse heel hook....:confused:
Its not a very high percentage lock but it can be done. I actually prefer the toe hold on that foot to the ankle lock (push the toes to the butt and sit up on your side for the toe hold). Are you letting go of your leg triangle to try and get the outside ankle lock?? You shouldn't have to give this up in order to get the ankle lock The problem with that particular ankle lock is there is nothing to lock the hip in place on the outside leg. In order to lock the hip...i shift my inside leg (knee) up and under your opponents hip and shift all my weight to that side.
Another good rule of thumb for an ankle lock is that you should be able to see the the top of their foot and their toes should be in your armpit (this will break all of the little bones in the top of the foot if you dont tap). If you cant see the top of their foot you are most likely applying an achillies lock...which causes pain but can be toughed out. I personally like submissions that break bones vs. just applying pain...especially in tournaments.
Jason Eisner can help you with this one, he's a 50/50 maniac :)
Here is a video example and step by step from me and gabbys gym...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toLvoU2D9gI
I like that a lot. I want to transition from the outside triangle to this
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1366&bih=500
He's doing a heel hook rather than the ankle lock but thats the position I mean by high side outside.
Hmmm...that position would probably be higher percentage from the sambo knot vs. the 50/50. Usually in the 50/50 your opponents right leg (in the picture you provided) would be across your stomach and triangled/locked on the other side...if it is not...then the inverted heal hook is probably a higher percentage option than throwing the leg across and trying to reposition your legs. Not saying its impossible...but thats not really 50/50 at that point...thats classic straight ankle lock or heel hook position.
Griffin-from a guy that uses the knot a lot and 50/50 alittle. I can say its not easy, it takes a lot of steps, and your oppenent might not hang out long enough for you to get to the knot. first I would suggest lifting your hips and let his leg go to the far hip( like lifting your hips during a triangle to get the arm across). unhook your leg triangle, take your outside like and thread it over his leg and under his other leg behind the knee.(make sure your pulling your inside out as your outside leg replaces it, like replacing hooks in spiderweb) Then bring in your other leg to finish the knot. Alittle tip when you do get to the knot stretch your legs,it makes everything tighter. hope this helps.
Thanks Scott! Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for the help.
Is there a way to transfer from the 50/50 to X-guard and then hit the high outside from there?
I'm sure you can do that but you would have to loosen your 50/50 clinch so he could stand up that way you could get to x-quard. If it was me I would go from x-guard to 50/50. I'm not to sure what your asking "high outside" AJ.
Griffin, keep me posted
I think Herzog refers to it as a reaper.. essentially the setup that leads to the leg knot. It's okay though, I think you answered my question.
Now I get ya. The reaper from x-guard is very easy, Herzog posted pics of steps on the forum but i'm not sure what thread. If your on facebook check my page or his and you'll find them.
The pic sequences was the reaper to the calf crush/knee compression and to the back, not the ankle lock/heel hook though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Yockel
AJ I'n not sure why you'd want to take the long road and go 50/50 to X-Guard to the Reaper(it reminds me of the game shoots and ladders, you climb up the ladder towards the finish only to come down the slide to work your way back up again). If your in the 50/50, by your own attack, I'd suggest to work a finish from there.
That being said what is more likely to happen, and Scott and I both use this when we aren't able to secure the knee knot from the reaper and opponent spins out, it is a very easy transition from the attempted knee knot to 50/50 right into the inverteed heel hook. So in a round about way yes the inside triangle (Clamp,Wedge and Knot)can be used in coordination with 50/50, however it is much easier imho to transition from the the inside to the outside (50/50) , than the other way around.
Heres the link to the thread Scott was referring to:
http://www.10thplanetjj.com/threads/...ghlight=reaper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Thats what i was trying to say :) You just said it way better...
Obrigado Mestre! I love the 50/50, but I'm no Ryan Hall. LOL. I have only been studying the 50/50 now for about a year and a half, but I plan to put in crazy numbers and hopefully be super good at it in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo
I think people on this thread already answered Griffin's question, but I can try and help a little too.
@ Griffin...going from the 50/50 to the high outside leg knot would be very unusual and would take a serious number of steps that would be very difficult. If your opponent is really unskilled in the position and they aren't protecting their legs at all, you could potentially make the transition, however, if they are that unskilled, I would think you would want to stay in the 50/50 and submit them from there.
@ AJ...people use X Guard to enter into the 50/50, but the reverse would be difficult because of the position of your opponents leg. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I haven't seen it done. Usually when your opponent stands up incorrectly in the 50/50, as a 50/50 player you would bring them back down to the mat, or if they are skilled in the position, you would do what is known as a 50/50 reset to continue coming back to the position.
@ Scott..."high outside" is the way some Sambo players refer to the position shown in Griffin's image posted above. However they usually refer to it as "high side outside," or "high side outside leg knot." Reilly Bodycomb made this terminology somewhat known within the system when he filmed a seminar at the now defunct 10th Planet Dallas Ft. Worth.
Thanks for the details Jason, even a sambo guy can learn something about sambo I guess. I have seen some of reilly stuff on video and on the mat before.
We can't do heel hooks during training so I was just wondering if there was a magical segue between the two positions. I see what you mean though, Scott's explanation kind of demonstrated the absurdity of working backwards to the X guard out of 50/50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
I have a cage grappling tournament coming up (heel hooks and slams allowed) so I'm just asking weird question to maximize opportunities to hit the leg knot. Some of the MMA guys out here are pretty clueless so I'd rather not blow out some kooks knee via a heel hook because I'm pretty sure none of these random guys are going to know what's up and they probably won't tap to it.
Oh well.. I got's to get over it.
Here's the only transition I've ever used successfully to go from 50/50 to a high outside attack.
The first step is to pass your opponents leg across your body. The first way is the most obvious; push up on the triangling leg with that same side arm, and then pull the foot you normally would inverted heel hook across with your other arm. You'll have to extend and retract your hips to get the quickest switch.
Usually subterfuge is required, so I'll attack the top leg to bait them into moving the inverted heel hook foot. Once it moves at all, I'm going to rip it across before they re-triangle. Examples of feinted attacks are swimming under the top leg, and trying to inverted heel hook it (I have about a .01% chance of getting this, but people will usually react) or straight ankle it.
Once the leg is passed, I need to control the free leg. If they are able to stand up, they're going to sprawl or smash my legs down and pull out, and I've lost everything. Usually I'll have the foot I just passed overhooked, and grabbing the free leg with my other hand. I'll use one of two grips; either grapping their foot like a toe hold and pulling, or cupping their heel like a wine glass with my elbow planted into the floor. Emphasis pulling their leg away. Every inch they get in retracting the leg is an inch of power.
Safely transitioning the legs has to be done a little quickly. If the guy isn't fooling with my legs too hard, I'll just quickly shrimp my hips out, away from the guy, and bring both my feet inside, looking for a leg knot. Usually things never go this nice. You have two options.
The first option is to take your not-in-danger-of-being-inverted-heel-hooked-leg and front kick his same-side armpit. This isn't going to stop him from heel hooking you forever, but it will slow him down just enough. From here you'll bring your heel hooking leg inside as you scoot out, and hook underneath his free leg at the knee pit (kind of like a butterfly hook, hooking under the knee pit and lifting up). This provides you with a lot more security in keeping him from standing up.
The other option is more of a hail mary, BUT it is a lot simpler with less steps they can screw up for you. Once you've passed the leg across, you're going to DIVE over to your belly, FOREHEAD on the ground. You should look like a little bridge, points of contact being your head and your knees. As you're going over, untriangle your legs, and pull your danger-of-being-inverted-heel-hooked-leg out from between his legs, and lay your shin in his knee pit, with your foot pointing away from his body. From here, you're going to finish rolling, and as your rolling, lift with your in-the-knee-pit-shin, making enough space to thread the leg knot.
Note, that from belly down you can also try and finish the ankle lock if your ankle locks are tight.
This second move is a hail mary. Don't depend on it, because it can screw up. The other move has a decent amount of steps for them to screw up, but if you remain patient it should be ok. If they start to stand up before you can roll or front kick their arm pit, you need to untriangle immediately and get ready to work something else.
I forgot to write something!
After this, your next battle is going to be getting your outside foot inside to reap the knee and start the knot. Since you have good control over the free leg though, you have a little more time to try and free your leg than usual. If the guy starts to attack your front kick leg and it is too dangerous, depending on how far you are (i.e., having the butterfly-hook on his knee pit or still having the leg exposed), you should roll or retriangle and start over.Quote:
The first option is to take your not-in-danger-of-being-inverted-heel-hooked-leg and front kick his same-side armpit. This isn't going to stop him from heel hooking you forever, but it will slow him down just enough. From here you'll bring your heel hooking leg inside as you scoot out, and hook underneath his free leg at the knee pit (kind of like a butterfly hook, hooking under the knee pit and lifting up). This provides you with a lot more security in keeping him from standing up.
Just like we refer to the transition as "the reaper" (from your back applying it from butterfly guard, X-guard, and underneath the mount, there are a few differences in the details but they are similar) at our gym, Reilly and his Coach Steve K. refer to it as the high outside, the name is not indigenous to "Sambo" more so its just a gym thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Eisner
Both of them are good people and good friends and are very knowledgeable.
Scott and Reilly went at it and the Freestyle Sambo Nationals a few years back, It would be very interesting to see them go at it again as both of their games have evolved and changed alot over the years and both have similar strengths.
I'm having the exact opposite problem. The majority of my training partners are much better than I am in the 50/50. I can stall and protect myself but whenever I attempt to escape or attack it turns into a race I typically lose. I do have success with ankle locks and toe holds from the high outside and leg knot and was hoping there was an effective transition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Eisner
I just need to drill 50/50 more. :o
Griffin...I had the exact same problem when i first started 50/50...felt like i was always defending and never had time to attack. I think i still have a long way to go but I have gotten much better at it. I try and keep my legs triangled and never give up the inside heel hook (basic principles). I usually give them my top leg and will even stick it up in their armpit from time to time...this can sometimes keep them occupied thinking they can straight ankle lock me (sell it...grimace...make them think their close)...all the while knowing that as long as I scoot my hips out they will never get it...this keeps them occupied while i attack. I am ok with sliding my botton leg up and down my calf...but never exposing that inside heal...just be aware of the texas cloverleaf submission if you are going to do that. Ohh...and kick their shoulder alot and control their arms to get your triangle back if your lose it.
That is why calling it the 50/50 is a misnomer. As Ryan Hall often says, whomever knows more from that position most often wins, so it can easily be a 60/40 guard, or a 70/30 guard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin Lambert
@ Chris...I just mentioned that "'high outside' is the way some Sambo players refer to the position shown in Griffin's image posted above."
I have only heard Sambo players use that terminology, namely Reilly Bodycomb, which is why I stated that. Most BJJ guys that I have trained with simply refer to it as a knee reap.
Yep, no problem I was just clarifying, as much for Scott's benefit as for anyone elses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Eisner
Word. Reaper. I can dig it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Cool. Do you have video of the first match?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Herzog
Not that I know of but I beat him on points back in the day. I do remember getting a couple of takedowns.
I know we didn't video it, not sure if Steve or someone else did though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Yockel