Does it bother anyone else?

[Ross Davidson]

Everyone has good points. I think I should define what's going down in my mind.
A) you out weigh me by 50lbs. Advantage you
B) I'm not attacking you I'm playing defense and position, advantage you
C) I'm playing bottom game advantage you
D) I out rank you and have been doing this a while advantage me

If you've ever watched me roll I am very reserved and composed, I have no problem playing from a shitty posish, if you want to roll with intensity I'm OK with that white to black, but don't start the roll at 100% flailing your limbs at me and using every ounce of muscle you have trying to flip me with 0 technique or pass. Start out at a decent pace and turn it up. As a white belt you should be going with no intensity, you're not gonna learn shit. This guy is an MMA fighter so he has a decent amount of experience.

My issue is you are actually trying to intentionally injure me AND he succeeded, I won't be rolling for probably a month because he thought it'd be cool to drop his whole 200lbs on my neck when I was inverted. Thanks guy, now when you come at me with that kind of intensity and I give it back and submit you 10 times in a couple minutes don't you think you ought to turn it down?

Again I have no problem with rolling hard, it's the fact that you're trying to take my head off when we're supposed to be teammates. Going hard for submissions when you don't know the consequences is like firing a gun blind folded with your family down range. Shit might get ugly

The difference between rough and hard rolling.

[Chauncey Nuusolia]

STOP SCROLLING AND READ THIS!! Marvelous story.

Let me attempt to respond to you with a story. (Everyone likes stories!)

Not so very long ago, I stepped onto Eddie Bravo's mats at Legends MMA as a wee white belt, happy as a clam to be engaged in an activity both physically and mentally stimulating. I had wrestled, and Eddie didn't have any policies about new people live rolling back then, so I started sparring immediately from my very first class (generally inadvisable, btw). Combining the techniques we'd covered with my wrestling skills into some hideous bastard pidgin grappling language, I attempted some moves on my training partners; mostly they failed, but occasionally succeeded. After a few rolls, I had tapped less than a handful of times and this tiny idiot voice in my head told me, "Hey, you must be a natural at this jiujitsu stuff! Experienced people were barely able to do much to you! And you were able to do things!" For about 6 weeks or so, that was how it went. I'd try a slow, sloppy flyover pass or use a rubber guard looser than Jenna Jameson, and I might sweep a blue or purple belt! Awesome!

Then one day Matt Horwich came in and asked me to roll; he was a blue belt and had been knocking people out in the IFL. We slapped hands and fist bumped and then I grabbed a single leg; he grabbed a guillotine and I tapped out. This sequence of events took about 1 second, literally less time than it takes to read the sentence describing them. "Nice!" I thought, "I'll have to watch out for that tricky guillotine." I pulled guard and he immediately passed and guillotined me again. And then again. And then again. And then he armbarred me. And then he kimura'ed me. And on and on. It was effortless, fluid, graceful as ballet, spiritual even. I felt like a 3-year-old getting his clothes put on by his parents. I felt like a cod fillet being flopped around in breading and then deep fried. My own pitiful floundering served solely to provide some colour and flavour to the methods of my destruction. We rolled for probably 5 minutes, and he tapped me at least 15 times; 8 of these were guillotines (I specifically remember this number). Awestruck, I profusely thanked this grappling demigod for deigning to descend from the clouds and allowing me the honor of tapping his arm as he choked me.

I then sat out the rest of the night and watched him intently in his next rolls against my usual training partners; I hoped to gain some understanding of the game. He did alright. He got a few subs, but was subbed more. Against the purple belts, he was bested convincingly. This thoroughly confused me. How could he destroy me effortlessly and then be beaten by people I was competitive with?

So that's when I realized that everyone had been taking it easy on me. It was like waking up from the Matrix; everything I had known about jiujitsu had been a lie. I sat there, stunned, on a disused punching bag in a sweaty gym, mentally replaying my matches of the past 6 weeks. Virtually every pass and sweep had been an allowance by my training partners. Looking at the details, I realized that it was obvious that the poor mechanics of my "known" techniques simply couldn't be effective. Up until that point, I had been complacently learning a silly pretend grappling.

Having my ass kicked by Matt Horwich (thanks) marked the beginning of my first leap forward in the sport, and I can mark many other such notable times. Ricco Rodriguez used to show up and tap me (thanks) with just a claustrophobia-inducing control. Brent Littell would literally chuckle out loud (thanks) as he shrugged off my pitiful D'arce and rear-naked choke attempts. Einstein, 100 lbs smaller than me, would dance past my "guard" and freedom rock on my neck so bad that my Adam's apple would hurt for a week. And I still have nightmares about the first time Josh Barnett suplexed me (thanks?). By now probably hundreds of people have whipped my ass, providing me mental footage to review and improve upon.

Alright, I'm done spewing that severely long story, but hopefully it sheds some light on the genesis of my mentality. To respond to you directly, I will say that a 'total beginner' shouldn't spar at all; Einstein generally makes newbs watch on the sidelines for a month before allowing them real sparring. Do I grab every submission that I can? No, I mentioned that I approach every match with 3-5 moves that I will use; I place myself in position to use them. If I'm working on the Heisman, I pull side control. If I'm working on turtle guard, I'll give up my back. Since I don't care about points, this is something I could do in an actual tournament as well. If I'm rolling against a white belt I will change moves after I use the same one a few times, but I will still have specific targets. Whether I'm rolling against a 250lb brown belt or a 150lb white belt, I will focus on perfect execution of the technique and I will apply enough force to accomplish this. In general, I believe that injury does not come from strength and size; injury comes from incorrect form.

Rolling without strength is extremely valuable, but I call this drilling and see it as quite a separate beast from sparring. The S training described in the above video (nice post, Royce) is awesome and can certainly help your game, but of course not as a whole-hog substitute for actual sparring. There are many components required to construct your technique. You need to learn from a good instructor, watch footage on youtube, read books, warm up properly, drill, flow with your friends, think about and dissect matches you've had in the past. And you need to roll for real.

[Ernest]

I assume we are going 90-95% unless discussed beforehand.

I save the last 5-10% for competition. I don't want to hurt the person I am rolling with. ( Most of the time my training partner is my lil brother).

[Tori Applegate]

Don't waste my time. I will smash your face if you do. I will get in mount and make you hate your life.

I go 100% all the time. I actually warn my teammates on days when I'm not feeling it. "hey, I'm not feeling it today, but I'm still gonna give it everything I got." Otherwise they know what's up. Yes, there is a difference in rough and hard...I like to be in the "miserable" category. I'm one of the smallest on the team and a woman so I feel like I can pretty much go how I want. I generally don't roll with new guys for two weeks. I don't want to scare them or make them leave. But first roll, bet I'm gonna smash them. I'm not gonna waste their time. I don't want them to waste mine, so let's go. If I'm not feeling like rolling with so n so one day bc he's 270lbs and my feet get stuck in his shirt and I'm tired...ok. Also, never go inverted on new people. Bad idea. They just try to jump on you..and they have no base. Don't do it. Y'all need to be putting the smash on people. Show them tips after you roll with them. Amaze them with your smash power...while rolling I compete all the time though. Average weight I compete against is 160..I'm 119...yea so....the more aggressive the better. It only makes me better and stronger, even if it pisses me off during the roll. But seriously, don't always let these spazzy white belts work, they're spazzy...SMASH THEM...PRESSUREEEEE. They will think you're not good sometimes too..esp the ego crazy ones.

This is all in my honest opinion. Bluntly..

[ml82]

Found this on sherdog today, an article by ryron gracie....

The Only Thing Worse Than Tapping

Posted on July 16, 2014

When I was growing up, I remember my grandfather telling me, “I’d rather you make a mistake and get submitted, than roll so hard that you can’t continue.”

What I took from this was that I was to never defeat myself. No matter how badly I want to submit someone, sometimes I must slow down because if I continue at the pace I am at, I run the greatest risk of all: complete exhaustion.

The reason complete exhaustion is worse than being submitted is because submission is generally due to a simple technical error. However, when you reach complete exhaustion, it is a psychological/mindset error.

We should never reach the level of vulnerability that exists when you are so tired that you are begging your training partner to get off you, unable to continue rolling, or the worst, when you can’t stand up because you’re so exhausted.

It’s okay to train hard, but be very careful not to defeat yourself. The desire to avoid inferior positions and the desire to submit your training partner may lead you to defeat. Learn how to pace yourself because the ability to outlast your opponent is a great technique in itself. If you ever had the chance to ask Helio Gracie how he defeated all those giants, he would have said, “I never defeated my opponents, they defeated themselves.”




I agree with ryron on this.

I prioritize the amount of strength I use in this order: to not get gassed, to not get tapped and to last 4 rolls and finally to go for the finish. So in saying that, I probably roll at 65-70%. Always, and if a guy is going aggressive, I try to tire him out. It's almost like I roll that way because my conditioning limits me.

I'll tell you what I hate though, unnecessary roughness like knee on face and cross facing with a gi on.

[Kurzy]

Sean Applegate, I just fell in love with your wife.


We have a new guy at our club. He came twice to try it and totally fell in love with Jiu Jitsu. He is open to learning and wants to learn as much as he can. He really seems to genuinely love it. He never misses a class and is eager to roll anyone of any skillset at any time.

But frig man, he doesn't want to tap.
I am only a whitebelt but I have two years of experience now, so I don't spazz out too much I think. I try to remain calm at all times when I roll. (Try) When I lock on a sub, I lock it in place and slowly up the pressure, giving ample opportunity to tap.
The other night I almost broke his arm in an arm bar, and I just bailed on it so I wouldn't injure him. I applied slowly, and he resisted and stood up and I was hanging upside down, could have easily bumped my hips and taken the arm, but I bailed and decided right then to sub him with a choke.
My logic was that if he didn't tap, he would sleep and maybe learn a lesson, without incurring injury.

Well after some scrambling I locked up a triangle and put it on hard and tight to help him calm down. He tapped and I let go.
I sat up and asked if he is alright, and them proceeded to explain to him how rolling at a club is different from a self defense situation. I don't want to break his arm. He shouldn't force me to exert that much pressure. If he knows he is caught, tap, slap bump and roll again.

The big problem with some techniques is that noobs don't recognize when they are in danger. We all keep repeating to him, "Tap early", "Don't be afraid to tap" etc etc, but he isn't getting it.

He will understand, and it's just a matter of time, but we all have to be careful in the meantime.

[Kurzy]

Found this on sherdog today, an article by ryron gracie....

The Only Thing Worse Than Tapping

Posted on July 16, 2014

When I was growing up, I remember my grandfather telling me, “I’d rather you make a mistake and get submitted, than roll so hard that you can’t continue.”

What I took from this was that I was to never defeat myself. No matter how badly I want to submit someone, sometimes I must slow down because if I continue at the pace I am at, I run the greatest risk of all: complete exhaustion.

The reason complete exhaustion is worse than being submitted is because submission is generally due to a simple technical error. However, when you reach complete exhaustion, it is a psychological/mindset error.

We should never reach the level of vulnerability that exists when you are so tired that you are begging your training partner to get off you, unable to continue rolling, or the worst, when you can’t stand up because you’re so exhausted.

It’s okay to train hard, but be very careful not to defeat yourself. The desire to avoid inferior positions and the desire to submit your training partner may lead you to defeat. Learn how to pace yourself because the ability to outlast your opponent is a great technique in itself. If you ever had the chance to ask Helio Gracie how he defeated all those giants, he would have said, “I never defeated my opponents, they defeated themselves.”




I agree with ryron on this.

I prioritize the amount of strength I use in this order: to not get gassed, to not get tapped and to last 4 rolls and finally to go for the finish. So in saying that, I probably roll at 65-70%. Always, and if a guy is going aggressive, I try to tire him out. It's almost like I roll that way because my conditioning limits me.

I'll tell you what I hate though, unnecessary roughness like knee on face and cross facing with a gi on.

You may have just changed my life with this post. Thank you.

[Martin Harris]

[QUOTE=Amir Allam;230629]Whenever we slap hands and fist bump before we roll, this signals to me that I should now begin attempting to submit you with all of the skill and willpower at my disposal. To give you less than 100% is to disrespect you, as if you are undeserving of my full effort. QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Tori Applegate;231173]Don't waste my time. I will smash your face if you do. I will get in mount and make you hate your life.

I go 100% all the time. I actually warn my teammates on days when I'm not feeling it. "hey, I'm not feeling it today, but I'm still gonna give it everything I got." Otherwise they know what's up. Yes, there is a difference in rough and hard...I like to be in the "miserable" category. QUOTE]

I think everyone has a different opinion of what 100% is. To me 100% is the energy, focus and application of techniques that I would use if I were in an MMA fight. This means snatching submissions with ferocity, grinding hard, and not caring about your well being as my training partner.

[Ross Davidson]

I agree with Tori. Smash all white belts. We have a few really big white belts at our gym now. They understand that strength isn't what jiu jitsu is about, but they know and I know that whoever has position (from the top or bottom) will not allow the other to be in any enjoyment at all. If I get side control, mount, back, whatever, I'm making their life hell. If they're still fresh, with a lot of energy, and I'm on bottom, I'll clinch them and make them freak out, unable to escape; wear them down so I can more easily advance. But this smashing comes from all the technique I can muster.

At the gym our hotbox has been at, completely different story. Strength is far more relied upon there. I remember the first time I rolled with one of the purple belts. He was better than me all around, as he should be; he's a friggin purple belt. But he was unnecessarily rough. I recall that he got to north south, secured the kimura grip, and proceeded to try and rip my arm out of my shoulder socket. That was the first of five minutes of trying my best to not get hurt. A few rolls later, my good friend and hotbox leader, Brandon Woolsey, had his pectoral muscle torn in a spar. I was not surprised when I learned that he was rolling with that very same individual.

I've also had another purple belt pop my MCL on a heel hook that he torqued really fucking hard. He then told me a couple months later that I wasn't qualified to do leg locks because I was a white belt. The instructor then brushed his comment off as nonsense and I proceeded to "show" him how a nice controlled heel hook feels.

So it goes for all, not just white belts.

[Kurzy]

I am not of the mindset that we should "Smash" anyone, personally. I don't mind rolling intensely and turning it up, but personally I try to make my approach like BJ's approach here:

If you've ever watched me roll I am very reserved and composed, I have no problem playing from a shitty posish, if you want to roll with intensity I'm OK with that white to black, but don't start the roll at 100% flailing your limbs at me and using every ounce of muscle you have trying to flip me with 0 technique or pass. Start out at a decent pace and turn it up.

That's what I aim for. I have a long way to go, as far as being "reserved and composed" goes, but I am only at 50% in the beginning and let things ramp up and settle out based on my partner.