Wrestling has 4 UFC belts, BJJ has 0: one explanation why

[BIBIANO]

Out of the eight UFC weight classes, four title holders would identify as Wrestlers: Dillashaw, Hendricks, Weidman, Velasquez....(Jones has a wrestling background, but I didn't count him).

Obviously this is a very different distribution of titles than one would expect to see in 1993 when BJJ dominated in MMA. Three main reasons for the decline in BJJ's success have been well documented: 1) the use of a kimono in training, 2) tournaments/academies that ban certain submissions (leg locks, slicers, etc), 3) tournaments/academies that encourage points instead of submissions.

I think there is another factor that is not being talked about. Why is it that Junior College Wrestlers are winning fights in the UFC and BJJ World Champions like Roger Gracie are being cut?

My theory starts in the year 708 B.C. when the Greeks added wrestling to the Olympics. International high level Wrestling programs are commonplace; countries like Iran and Russia even have state sponsored Wrestling programs. In the U.S., elite wrestlers distinguish themselves as State and NCCA Champions, and then a small group of NCCA Champions become Olympians.

I think it is simple mathematics: more people in the world participating in a sport for a longer time + more high level competitions = a more competitive sport.

Wrestling has been practiced at an Olympic level for 2700 years. Wrestling techniques and training methods have been fine tuned for almost 3-millennia. At the highest level, there are very few takedowns or pins. The matches are so competitive, an underhook might be the difference between Gold and Silver. When the competition is that high, competitors have to be in impeccable shape, cut just the right amount of weight, have the right strength to weight ratio, have wrestled since they were 3 etc. etc.

Put simply, when I think of a World Champion wrestler, I think of a high level athlete. On the other hand, Jiu Jitsu world champions vary greatly in athletic ability.

My theory is that as BJJ competition becomes more widespread, it will become more competitive. When you have to be a world class athlete to be a World Champion in Jiu Jitsu, BJJ will enjoy more success in the UFC.

For example, if Roger Grace had been born in a wrestling family in Iowa, I don't know that he would be an Olympic champion in wrestling. I don't know that he has the physical attributes. However, if you are going to wrestle at a D1 school, you essentially need to be a genetic freak. For example, look at the success Jacare Souza is having in the UFC. He's a nightmare on the ground, but his athleticism makes him a serious threat on the feet, even though he hasn't had the time to master striking.

Also, Wrestling mainly takes place at non-profit institutions, such as high schools, universities and Olympic training centers. When there is no profit motive, there is no reason for a school to shun a technique if it is effective. In contrast, BJJ academies and tournaments are almost exclusively profit ventures. When large associations have been "selling" BJJ in the Kimono, it becomes extremely difficult to switch to no-gi, or, as seen after the last Metamoris, to admit that other associations have made valuable contributions to the game.

I think another difference between Wrestling and BJJ is the fact that Wrestling mainly takes place on the feet. I know this sounds like a no shit point, but I think there are important distinctions between a sport that takes place on the feet vs. a sport that mostly takes place on the ground. For one, MMA fights start on the feet. When a ref starts a match, Wrestlers are in a very familiar position, both competitors standing up. When a BJJ competitor enters an MMA fight, there is an intermediate step (a takedown) before the BJJ competitor is at home.

Also, since Wrestling mainly takes place on the feet, my guess is that there are physiological differences between Wrestling and BJJ. When you are tired, do you bend at a 90 degree angle or dance around on your feet, or do you lay down? My theory is that Wrestling, which incorporates the large glute muscles and core at every second might force athletes to develop a physiological superior body, but I haven't worked out the science, so it is just bro science for now.

Further, a big part of Wrestling is competition. A mandatory part of the Wrestling season is weekly competition, if you don't compete, you can't even practice. Wrestlers seem to be amazing competitors, guys like Weidman and Velasquez seem eerily cool under pressure. In BJJ, I don't know of any compulsory competitions, or many people who compete every week for a few months a year.

This is just my theory, and I am sure there are lots of nuisances that I am not addressing. I look forward to hearing what the 10 family has to say so I can sharpen the argument.

One obvious counter-example is why weren't Wrestlers dominating in the early days of the UFC? My reply is for one, I didn't see any Mark Colemans or Dan Henersons in the early early UFC days. Because Wrestling competition is so well established, the elite level wrestlers continued to make a good living in Wrestling instead of competing in the UFC three times per year (in Biloxi Mississippi) . As the UFC became more prominent, Wrestlers like Randy Couture, who could never make it on the Olympic team (except as an alternate) began to see MMA as a viable alternative. As MMA became more lucrative, more decorated Wrestlers like Velasquez and Cormier have transitioned into MMA.

[David Rosado]

But Wrestlers HAVE dominated in the early days of the UFC. Once Royce stopped fighting, it was Severn who won. Most of the time when a wrestler would fight he'd win. Mark Schultz. Don Frye wrestled a bit. Mark Coleman. Mark Kerr. BJJ would win in the early days because most guys were still unaware of the subs. Wrestlers eventually learned BJJ and started smashing BJJ guys. Strikers had trouble with TDD. Then they learned and started giving the wrestlers problems.

I think there are a few reasons why BJJ fell off as the dominant art. In addition to your point of athleticism, I also believe it's about style and toughness.

IMO the arms race of MMA was between strikers and wrestlers while BJJ evolved itself seperate from MMA into more of its own sport and less of a fighting system. So you see guys like Hendricks knocking guys out with newly learned striking. You see strikers like Lawler with good TDD. But then you have guys like Maia and Roger who suck at everything except BJJ. Problem is, modern traditional BJJ doesn't fit modern MMA.

For your BJJ to be good in MMA you need a 5 minute style. You need a fast paced, guard passing, punching, submission chaining style with the finish always on your mind. With the rules as they are in MMA, there's little room for slow paced methodical BJJ. You can't think, ok, I'll try to finish once I pass guard. No, you should be punching WHILE you work on passing. Joey DiSalvo's recent match is a good example. Cain Velazquez is a good example. Jake Shields is a bad example (sorry). And once you pass, you should be punching and looking for subs. Basically always doing damage. Always threatening a finish.

And on bottom, your guard should be super active. But we already know that.


Traditional BJJ makes up the majority of BJJ stylists in MMA. The points style really hinders their fight efficiency. It's a fight but you rarely see BJJ guys making it a fight. Instead they make it a grappling contest. Like jake shields. Punches are huge because they can be demoralizing. As long as the guy is not being punched, he has a bit more morale to feel like they're still in the fight. Like they can still get back to their feet and beat you. Look at Maia vs Rory as an example. Maia had the friggin mount. Did nothing with it. At first, you could tell Rory was not happy. The end was near. But as time went on and he wasn't getting hurt by punches, and submission attempts weren't being thrown at him, and he realized the end is not near. He put up a fight and came back to dominate. Now look at Cain's fights. He takes their souls with his relentless attack. Look at Boogeyman's last fight. Look at Joey DiSalvo. You gotta take their morale from top position. But traditional BJJ doesn't teach that killer instinct. It teaches points. But you don't get three points for a pass in MMA.

I think another part is that modern BJJ went soft. I feel like BJJ in MMA has forgotten that this was started as a martial art, not a sport. They've forgotten the point of why we take a guy to the ground. It's to be able to hit them as much as much as I want (or don't want) while they can't hit me back. But this is a fight sport. You don't get three points for passing guard. You get points for scoring damage. Not literally, but you get my point. The point is modern BJJ has taken the fight out of old school original BJJ. Someone could correct me, but from what I know about wrestling, there is no rolling light. They go hard every time. And in striking, even when you go light, you're still getting hit. It breeds a certain toughness that modern BJJ doesn't really give. So you have guys who've spent years in a hostile sport getting into MMA and transitioning with hardly any extra effort. Then you have other guys who are trying to learn toughness later in life. But that kind of toughness doesn't come easy.

I'm not saying BJJ guys are pussies by any means. If I thought that, I wouldn't love BJJ the way I do. But I've followed this art for 19 years and have seen a lot of changes from the sidelines. I've watched it steer further away from the martial art. I've watched the softening. No neck cranks. No heel hooks. No reaping. The gi became divine. The art became a sport. The sport became a religion. And while BJJ devolved, MMA evolved. And that's why I gravitated toward 10th planet. Because it's the one place that cared about the state of BJJ in MMA. It's the one place that is saying, we're going to make a modern MMA relevant style of jiu jitsu to remind people that it's still a killer martial art.

I'm a end my rant here cuz I could go on forever. Either way 10thP4L.

[BIBIANO]

Good points David. I didn't really address the ban on certain subs, or the points system in my post because I think those arguments are pretty well settled, but I definitely agree in that regard.

I actually just talked to my good friend on FB who is a long time wrestler. He made the same point about the fast-paced wrestling style translating better to MMA than the more methodical, sometimes endurance based BJJ approach.

So add that to the list of arguments for why Wrestling is outdoing BJJ in MMA: the format of Wrestling matches is better suited to MMA, which usually has three 5-minute rounds, and you start standing at the start of each round. Wrestling matches, with three 3-minute periods seems to translate better to MMA, where BJJ matches can go 20 or 30 minutes uninterrupted. However, I would imagine at black belt, the average match time is about 10 minutes, but the rules on stalling in BJJ do not seem to be as strict as in Wrestling. Also, the match is not divided into periods where the competitors are stood up, like wrestling and MMA.

[David Rosado]

The more I talk about it, the more I realize how MMA is a sport as well. It went from being the ultimate proving ground for martial arts to being its own sport. BJJ is still self defense relevant. But MMA rules just don't favor BJJ. At all.

[stan myaskovskiy]

I wonder how much would change if the UFC allowed fighters to wear rashguards and/or spats for some grip/moisture control. I think the fact that they are so slippery is a MAJOR factor also in the ability for wrestlers to dominate.

[BIBIANO]

Good point Stan, it seems like in BJJ you can utilize clothing to your advantage, not so much I'm the singlet. In college wrestling there are even restrictions on grasping your hands, it's like the opposite of being able to grab the gi

[CTGRXB]

well in america kids aren't training bjj as much as they are wrestling. 10 yrs ago in some major cities you would be surprised to find a lot of wrestling programs, im from philly, and went to a big sports HS where the football coach was the AD and was scared to have football players wrestle bc they might get hurt so we didn't have a wrestling program, we couldn't even play basketball with our friends or the whole team was punished. that's why wrestling has it over bjj now, in the states at least

didnt anderson silva beat chael sonnen (great wrestler) w a triangle, didnt anderson silva beat dan henderson w a rear naked choke, how many times do we see guys take someones back and finish.....bjj

[BIBIANO]

True true, techniques from BJJ are still widely used in MMA, especially when a guy is nearly unconscious from strikes (Silva v. Dan Henderson). However, fighters who identify with BJJ are not winning like fighters who identify as wrestlers. Anderson has awesome BJJ, but it is a little different b/c you almost had to take him down. If Anderson had no striking his ground game would be different, people would not be content to stay in his guard and would not take him down.

[Ben Eddy]

I think it's as simple as a bjj guy has to get through the opponent's wrestling to get him to the ground. If he has better wrestling/judo than the bjj guy, the bjj guy won't even get a chance to get him to the ground and use his technique. Even if the bjj guy has better wrestling than the opponent, he still might not be able to get him to the ground because he can't get through the strikes. His only chance to use bjj against an opponent that outwrestles or strikes him is in the guard (or on top after a sweep). And the bjj guard play we're seeing used just isn't working well in mma.

Striker/bjj or wrestler/bjj far outdo bjj/striker or bjj/wrestler at this point because the best striker/wrestler/judo is going to manage the takedowns. We'll have to see guard get better for this to change or better clinching to the back on the feet.

[Elisha J Baker]

BJJ is still an essential part of every fighter's skill set in that you don't bother competing without submissions experience. It's true not a lot of fighters make subs their main game now, though. Lots of obvious reasons for that in sport BJJ.

I still think strikers with a great BJJ game are the most exciting fighters to watch. The way you can throw strikes when you really don't care much about getting taken down is totally different from the way you have to throw when you need to avoid the takedown at all costs.