Luta Livre belt translation?

[DonDuckel]

really interessting discussion here, particular intresting for a grappler from germany because Luta Livre in Germany is almost as big as bjj.

I had the pleasure to attend seminars and train with luta livre fighters like nicolas renier, leozada nogueira, pequeno, daniel d dane and andreas andyconda schmidt. And i must say that it´s sadly not black and white, and what i mean by that it´s hard to say that "luta livre emphasises submission before submission" or "luta livre emphasises top position". Like in bjj the styles differs from instructor to instructor. For example Nicolas Renier talks about "breaking the cycle", meaning that normaly there is a hirachy in position and a "natural" idea that you take the opponent down, pass the guard, get mount or backmount and then submit the opponent. Nicolas wants to attack from all positions to suprise the opponent. But today there are alot of jj practitioners fighting the same way (garry tonon for example). Other guys like andreas schmidt from germany emphasises control, and he progresses step by step, killing the space, till he get the submission. Both, Nicolas and Andreas, are highlevel LL Blackbelts (2nd and 4th degree) and both fight and teach in a completly different way. Therefore it´s safe to say that, like in jiu jitsu, there are many styles and ideas, the main thing that we differ nowadays to "nogi jiu jitsu" (more on that at the end) is the history, sometimes the catch wrestling mentality (elbow digging and crossfacing everyday) and the stronger emphasis on wrestling then most bjj schools.

But for me personaly there is JJ and there is Luta Livre. JJ is in the gi, LL is without. For me Nogi BJJ is obsurd in the same way GI Luta Livre would be obsurd to you. There is no GI Wrestling and no NOGI Judo.


I hope i could add something to the discussion

[CHOKE LL]

Very good analysis!!!!

[Jack Hanley]

really interessting discussion here, particular intresting for a grappler from germany because Luta Livre in Germany is almost as big as bjj.

I had the pleasure to attend seminars and train with luta livre fighters like nicolas renier, leozada nogueira, pequeno, daniel d dane and andreas andyconda schmidt. And i must say that it´s sadly not black and white, and what i mean by that it´s hard to say that "luta livre emphasises submission before submission" or "luta livre emphasises top position". Like in bjj the styles differs from instructor to instructor. For example Nicolas Renier talks about "breaking the cycle", meaning that normaly there is a hirachy in position and a "natural" idea that you take the opponent down, pass the guard, get mount or backmount and then submit the opponent. Nicolas wants to attack from all positions to suprise the opponent. But today there are alot of jj practitioners fighting the same way (garry tonon for example). Other guys like andreas schmidt from germany emphasises control, and he progresses step by step, killing the space, till he get the submission. Both, Nicolas and Andreas, are highlevel LL Blackbelts (2nd and 4th degree) and both fight and teach in a completly different way. Therefore it´s safe to say that, like in jiu jitsu, there are many styles and ideas, the main thing that we differ nowadays to "nogi jiu jitsu" (more on that at the end) is the history, sometimes the catch wrestling mentality (elbow digging and crossfacing everyday) and the stronger emphasis on wrestling then most bjj schools.

But for me personaly there is JJ and there is Luta Livre. JJ is in the gi, LL is without. For me Nogi BJJ is obsurd in the same way GI Luta Livre would be obsurd to you. There is no GI Wrestling and no NOGI Judo.


I hope i could add something to the discussion

This is actually a really good point. When George Gracie would fight no-gi matches back in the day, they were calling it a "luta livre" match in the newspapers.

This even applied if his opponent was another jiu-jitsu guy such as his November 29, 1936 match against Yano in Belo Horizonte. They called it a "luta livre" match. When one of the gracie's fought Yano on September 28, 1935 in Rio they fought in the gi and they called it "jiu-jitsu".

(Source: you can see a pretty comprehensive run down of all these fights in this era in the list here: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thre...-of-BJJ/?pc=55.)

[Nick Paul]

This is still an interesting topic to me. I started out at an MMA school and learned no gi and we had no ranking system. I was about a year and a half into my training when being "unranked" really bothered me, because I was easily blue belt level and beating blue belts in comp. I got my LL blue belt from my second gym that I train at but that's what sparked my curiosity on the subject. Since I've made this post we had a Royler Gracie blackbelt move to our city from Brazil and he's taken over our jiu jitsu program. He gave me my BJJ blue belt about 2 weeks after training with him. For whatever reason I felt more validated for my skill even though I'm progressing all the same. After rolling with guys from different styles, from catch wrestling, to bjj, to luta livre I've realized that belts don't mean as much as you want them too. I've seen unranked catch wrestlers crush BJJ black belts and all sorts of crazy shit

[DaddyBaresi]

The bits about Nicolas Renier in DonDuckels post ring true for me.

I should add that I've trained there a lot more since the last time I posted on this thread, and what I said then still stands. His guys do look to constantly attack for the sub, rather than establish a position then sub. It makes sparring fun and for a juijitsu guy it really helps you to tighten your transitions as well as ensuring that when you establish control you really close down your opponent.

[David Rosado]

Interesting. I always believed that luta livre was just how Brazilians referred to no gi jiu jitsu. Even Milton Viera seems to believe that. From what I've gathered from this thread, it seems that bjj was in the gi and luta livre is just what they called no gi since they didn't have any other name for it. I'm pretty sure it translates well to no gi. I think a couple guys who won the ADCC trial in Brazil are LL guys so it strikes me as a legit art. But I guess the rankings don't translate. Oh well.

[David Rosado]

Here's a video of Milton Vieria who is a black belt in Luta Livre and Jiu Jitsu, talking about the difference and what he took from both
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20CR_N63jgY

Damn this video is a lot of fun to watch. Milton's got a wonderful anaconda. Pause.

[Nick Paul]

LL also incorporates the entire aresenal of leg locks, including all reaping positions and heel hooks. Rousimar Palhares actually credits his heel hook game to his background in Luta Livre before jiu jitsu. I wonder if the hardcore LL Camps consider 10th Planet Luta Livre?

[DaddyBaresi]

LL also incorporates the entire aresenal of leg locks, including all reaping positions and heel hooks. Rousimar Palhares actually credits his heel hook game to his background in Luta Livre before jiu jitsu. I wonder if the hardcore LL Camps consider 10th Planet Luta Livre?

I think this "BJJ guys don't do leg locks" is becoming redundant. In Paris I train with Gracie Barra and also a smaller team called Hybrid. In the nogi sessions at GB pretty much anything goes, unless training for a specific tournament (IBJJF rules).

At my home gym in the UK, we have MMA guys training with us, so to limit the leg and foot locks just wouldn't make sense.

[DonDuckel]

In the Heavyweight Division at the ADCC Trials in Brasil a Luta Livre called "Chocolate" from RFT Brasil won the trials and Nicolas Renier also qualified for this years ADCC. The Luta Livre "Tribe" is way smaller then the Jiu Jitsu Community (i would guess the size of "Alliance JJ") therefore there are only a few highlevel competitors. I would love to see Nicolas Renier Fight at EBI oder Metamoris to display the art of Luta Livre. This would definitley be very interesting to watch.