Denny Prokopos Vs Nathan Orchard EBI-2 Finals

[Ben Eddy]

I Disagree we both tried to win. He tried to win with offense I just tried to win using defense and that was the winning strategy. The goal is not to beat one person but choose the right strategy that wins the whole event and that was the right one.

Can't fault the competitor, they are there to win. They will always pursue the strategy they believe they can win with.

The goal of EBI however, is to make sure there is no defensive/non-exciting strategy that can lead to winning. You've shown that's not the case with the current structure of EBI. But if it wasn't you, it would've been someone else. It's EBI's job to set the format, the competitor will always simply want to win.

Someone could even have gone further than denny's strategy and have played defensive in the finals as well. If you truly only care about winning, focusing your time on securing and maintaining the position would've been a better strategy than trying for a tap. Trying for the tap just risks losing the position. When Orchard decided to go for armbar start, he immediately tried to take it to his reverse spider web position. He lost the hold and by immediately going for the tap with that risky attempt, he probably lost those 17 seconds and the match.

So time to tweak the model? What can be changed to takeaway the defensive/non-exciting strategy?

Increased ref involvement with stall calls?

Money? Money might change it, but we won't know until we have it and it's kind of a chicken and the egg problem. You need the money to make it exciting and you need it to be exciting to get the money.

Keep fostering a community of fans that call for going for the submission, that reward those who do? If it's clear the community around EBI aren't going to enjoy you doing anything other than play aggressive, than hopefully that continues to have an affect on competitors decisions to play to the crowd and aim for submissions above strategy.

If it's clear playing defensive will have a bad backlash from the community, won't win any money for subs, and might lose you the match anyway for stall cals, then hopefully that's enough.

There's probably no easy answer or perfect solution, just gotta keep playing with it. It still seems to be better than most though. GEO secured taps in all four of his matches. Denny got submissions in 3/4 and I believe Nathan was 3/4 too? That's a lot of submissions for high level competitors, a better ratio than most/any current tournaments. And at worst, when faced with an opponent using a defensive strategy, at least we get an overtime format that forces action rather than one that forces the match to be called based off wrestling takedowns. So we're still doing well. Just might be able to do better too.

[Tim Bruhn]

^^^ Agree

Again only brainstorming with the utmost respect for my peers and speaking as a spectator wanting to see BJJ on the ground.

The competitor 'stalling' gets put in back control or spiderweb? More of a deterrent than a warning and gets the match to the ground?

If they escape and choose to get back to their feet and don't re-engage immediately on the ground (sitting or looking to pass their sitting opponent) back into back control or spiderweb they go.

In the example in this final, it would have happened the second time Denny chose to stand and disengaged IMO.

[Bryan Gore]

My Perspective.


The Truth is that I absolutely LOVE and RESPECT NATHAN ORCHARD to death and I DID NOT TRY TO TAP HIM in regulation. All I wanted was to WIN and NOT TAP HIM and that's what happened Denny why would you do that? It's a very complicated situation he is my team mate and I genuinely view him as a successor of mine. I inspired and helped make that beast and I just would have rather not publicly executed him. Some will understand others will not, I don't care I DID WHAT I THOUGHT WAS RIGHT and everyone is the family is SUPER TIGHT

Oh wow. Disappointment.
Lots of it.

Damn.

[Bryan Gore]

^^^ Agree

Again only brainstorming with the utmost respect for my peers and speaking as a spectator wanting to see BJJ on the ground.

The competitor 'stalling' gets put in back control or spiderweb? More of a deterrent than a warning and gets the match to the ground?

If they escape and choose to get back to their feet and don't re-engage immediately on the ground (sitting or looking to pass their sitting opponent) back into back control or spiderweb they go.

In the example in this final, it would have happened the second time Denny chose to stand and disengaged IMO.

Well, I think the more simple solution to this is to simply ask each competitor before the competition if there is anyone else in the tournament that they aren't willing to give 100% against and if they say "yes", then send them home.

[brianspinaltap]

Respect to all, but as a Bjj spectator the stand up was... Not entertaining.

Question: if we're looking for exciting matches and subs why not start on the ground like regular rolling?

[Ben Eddy]

^^^ Agree

Again only brainstorming with the utmost respect for my peers and speaking as a spectator wanting to see BJJ on the ground.

The competitor 'stalling' gets put in back control or spiderweb? More of a deterrent than a warning and gets the match to the ground?

If they escape and choose to get back to their feet and don't re-engage immediately on the ground (sitting or looking to pass their sitting opponent) back into back control or spiderweb they go.

In the example in this final, it would have happened the second time Denny chose to stand and disengaged IMO.

Too complicated and too much of a negative from just one call IMO. Remember calling stalling will be a semi controversial call. It will be a call that is up to judges discretion. That much negative coming from one judgement call is too much. I think it should be 3 stalling calls and then DQ. It gives a little period of time where the competitor can react and adjust his action. It also gives the ref some room to call a couple while not interfering with the match.

Well, I think the more simple solution to this is to simply ask each competitor before the competition if there is anyone else in the tournament that they aren't willing to give 100% against and if they say "yes", then send them home.

No. Denny is arguing he gave 100%, sort of.. His strategy just was defensive. Competitors interested in playing a defensive strategy to win are not going to be weeded out by this. EBI's format has to weed out defensive strategies as a good option to choose.

Respect to all, but as a Bjj spectator the stand up was... Not entertaining.

Question: if we're looking for exciting matches and subs why not start on the ground like regular rolling?

Because standup can be fun to watch. It just needs to be aggressive. It's also an important part of the sport. You can't just takeaway standup. If you were to start one opponent in guard and one on top, then what? Do you not allow the opponent in guard to stand? Do you not allow the other opponent to play guard? You have to let the match be fluid and let opponents switch between standing and guard play as they attack. The format just needs to encourage aggressive play at each position.

[Bryan Gore]

No. Denny is arguing he gave 100%, sort of.. His strategy just was defensive. Competitors interested in playing a defensive strategy to win are not going to be weeded out by this. EBI's format has to weed out defensive strategies as a good option to choose.

I hope that's what he meant, but it sure didn't sound like what he meant. He said he didn't want to tap him because they were friends. He wanted to win, but he wanted to win in a specific way that he considered to be a nicer way to beat your friend.

[brianspinaltap]

Because standup can be fun to watch. It just needs to be aggressive. It's also an important part of the sport. You can't just takeaway standup. If you were to start one opponent in guard and one on top, then what? Do you not allow the opponent in guard to stand? Do you not allow the other opponent to play guard? You have to let the match be fluid and let opponents switch between standing and guard play as they attack. The format just needs to encourage aggressive play at each position.

True, they could just stand up again…

anyway, at least this one didn't end up in foot locks…

[Pan]

Respect to all involved for the performance and honesty.

[nathan orchard]

I hope that's what he meant, but it sure didn't sound like what he meant. He said he didn't want to tap him because they were friends. He wanted to win, but he wanted to win in a specific way that he considered to be a nicer way to beat your friend.

Denny did try to tap me in ot just not in the regulation round. But he definitely tried to tap.