Child ranks in 10th Planet BJJ?

[BIBIANO]

I think as far as wrestling not having belts, that is comparing apples and oranges. Wrestling doesn't have belts, but there are plenty of ways to distinguish yourself. For example, not just anybody can walk into Iowa and pay $100 a month to join the team, you have to be given a spot on the team. There are all-Americans, State champions, Division I, Olympic alternate etc. I can see why wrestling doesn't need belts, b/c there is a structure to wrestling that allows you to distinguish levels of success by the fact that not everybody can participate in the prestigious programs or tournaments.

[Chris Herzog]

I think as far as wrestling not having belts, that is comparing apples and oranges. Wrestling doesn't have belts, but there are plenty of ways to distinguish yourself. For example, not just anybody can walk into Iowa and pay $100 a month to join the team, you have to be given a spot on the team. There are all-Americans, State champions, Division I, Olympic alternate etc. I can see why wrestling doesn't need belts, b/c there is a structure to wrestling that allows you to distinguish levels of success by the fact that not everybody can participate in the prestigious programs or tournaments.

Excatly my point, those are accomplishments based on functional skills there isn't a need for focusing on material gain. They understand there reward is being good at what you do vs. what you are handed. Its the exact same for Sambo.

[Chris Herzog]

and btw a number of high school and college programs allow people to walk on and train, they are always looking for extra bodies to throw around. I have quite a few students (females included) that have never wrestled that train with the college teams because there is no jiu jitsu in the nearby are of their university.

[Chris Herzog]

For the record, I am not against ranks for children, or adults, Im against an emphasis on belts over function, which is a trend in traditional martial arts thats spreading over to combat sports like Jiu Jitsu & Judo. I've seen drastic changes over the years in Judo and see the same trends happening in Jiu Jitsu and I don't feel its for best. I'm not against change, I against a decline in quality.

[Neil Kiernan]

I think as far as wrestling not having belts, that is comparing apples and oranges. Wrestling doesn't have belts, but there are plenty of ways to distinguish yourself. For example, not just anybody can walk into Iowa and pay $100 a month to join the team, you have to be given a spot on the team. There are all-Americans, State champions, Division I, Olympic alternate etc. I can see why wrestling doesn't need belts, b/c there is a structure to wrestling that allows you to distinguish levels of success by the fact that not everybody can participate in the prestigious programs or tournaments.

The vast majority of youth wrestling takes place in organizations you pay to be part of, like USA, MyWay, etc. USA has a slot on their tournament enrollment to give an idea of how experienced your child is. But the definitions are vague and kind of at the discretion of the person signing them up to be honest about it. There is nothing to indicate how many techniques they know, how advanced they are, etc. MyWay has a novice division for wrestlers who have only been wrestling for two years but after that you are kind of just thrown in with everyone else in tournaments even if they have been wrestling for five, six years, etc. (Needless to say, that rarely goes well.)

So the structure of wrestling you are talking about basically does not exist until middle school (If your middle school even has a program, and many don't.) and High school. And the structure that exists then is "Be the best at your weight class, or don't compete."

I am not talking about rank in the terms of "material gain" insomuch as a useful gauge for where someone is, and a sense of accomplishment for the progress you have made. And definitely to help ensure that you can go to a tournament and enjoy yourself.

I remember thinking about the advantages that Judo had over Wrestling when it came to this because even me at 38 years old can start Judo now and be put with people the same or near the same rank as me and therefore have a competitive series of matches to look forward to. If I was stuck on the mat with Brown and Black belts my experience would not generally be as positive. And while it would be annoying for adults, for kids getting crushed constantly is a good way to lose interest. Particularly if you drive a long distance and pay a fee only to be eliminated quickly by someone who has been competing years longer then you in a match you were incredibly unlikely to win.

[Neil Kiernan]

For the record, I am not against ranks for children, or adults, Im against an emphasis on belts over function, which is a trend in traditional martial arts thats spreading over to combat sports like Jiu Jitsu & Judo. I've seen drastic changes over the years in Judo and see the same trends happening in Jiu Jitsu and I don't feel its for best. I'm not against change, I against a decline in quality.

We are actually on the same page about this. Which is why I mentioned that I liked that my Sensei asked people to compete in order to rank. That system of quality check has serious benefits. I think the same thing should be done in BJJ. Even if it is just you demonstrating you can do it by sparring/rolling locally or in your own dojo.

[Neil Kiernan]

Im not determined to post it to prove you wrong, im determined to figure out "how" to post it from my phone.

I agree 100%, my only argument with what you said about rank is that there are clear minimum age requirements.

In the interest of just clarifying the information I presented as an example and hopefully clearing up this issue this is from the email I just got back from my Sensei:

"anything is possible, someone can always change the rules but i can give you numerous examples to prove i was not misstating ranking up.

aaron kunihiro won the the US senior nationals at 14 he got his black belt at 15. looks like a junior to me?
how many more names would you like?

and to make it easier perhaps you should check out the list of competitors in the JUNIOR US OPEN and count the number of black belts. notice this is the JUNIOR open. they must be juniors! and there is no JUNIOR black belt rank in judo. black belt rank in judo is only a senior rank."

I hope that clears things up.

[Chris Herzog]

In the interest of just clarifying the information I presented as an example and hopefully clearing up this issue this is from the email I just got back from my Sensei:

"anything is possible, someone can always change the rules but i can give you numerous examples to prove i was not misstating ranking up.

aaron kunihiro won the the US senior nationals at 14 he got his black belt at 15. looks like a junior to me?
how many more names would you like?

and to make it easier perhaps you should check out the list of competitors in the JUNIOR US OPEN and count the number of black belts. notice this is the JUNIOR open. they must be juniors! and there is no JUNIOR black belt rank in judo. black belt rank in judo is only a senior rank."

I hope that clears things up.

Exceptions to the rules are not the rules themselves. I stand by the fact each org has a clear set if guildlines as to what the minimum age requirements are. I don't make the rules so I hold no stake in the them but they are clearly there.

If you'd like I will still post them. But you aren't interested in what the rules are, you are interested in what your sensei tells you there are, so its pointless.

[Neil Kiernan]

Exceptions to the rules are not the rules themselves. I stand by the fact each org has a clear set if guildlines as to what the minimum age requirements are. I don't make the rules so I hold no stake in the them but they are clearly there.

If you'd like I will still post them. But you aren't interested in what the rules are, you are interested in what your sensei tells you there are, so its pointless.

I was actually only interested in clarifying what I had heard so you knew where I got it from. That said, he is absolutely right about Aaron Kunihiro. http://www.teamusa.org/Athletes/KU/Aaron-Kunihiro

How did Aaron enter the "Senior" nationals without a "Senior" black belt? (Much less win it.)

2005:

Gold - Ladder Tournament
Gold - USA Judo Senior National Championships (55kg)
Silver - National High School Championships (55kg)
Silver - Pan American Senior Championships (55kg)
Silver - Pan American Juvenile Championships (55kg)
Bronze - Junior U.S. Open (Cadet, 60kg)
Bronze - Junior U.S. Open (Youth, 60kg)

2004:

Gold - USA Judo Senior National Championships (55kg)
Gold - Fall Classic National Championships (55kg)
Gold - USA Judo National Junior Olympic Championships (IJF Junior, 55kg)
Gold - Rendez-Vous Canada (55kg)
Gold - U.S. Judo Federation Junior National Championships (Juvenile C, 55kg)
Gold - U.S. Judo Federation Junior National Championships (Juvenile B, 55kg)
Bronze - Junior U.S. Open (Cadet, 55kg)
Bronze - National High School Championships (55kg)

He entered the Senior tournaments the same years he entered the Junior tournaments. And what about Frank's point about youth players listed as black belts when there is no "junior" black belt rank in Judo?

I seriously am not trying to escalate any personal issues here. But you kind of went on the offensive with your post saying I was "spewing shit" so I came back to identify where I am coming from. And your last reply is headed in the same direction.

[Chris Herzog]

I was actually only interested in clarifying what I had heard so you knew where I got it from. That said, he is absolutely right about Aaron Kunihiro. http://www.teamusa.org/Athletes/KU/Aaron-Kunihiro

How did Aaron enter the "Senior" nationals without a "Senior" black belt? (Much less win it.)



He entered the Senior tournaments the same years he entered the Junior tournaments. And what about Frank's point about youth players listed as black belts when there is no "junior" black belt rank in Judo?

I seriously am not trying to escalate any personal issues here. But you kind of went on the offensive with your post saying I was "spewing shit" so I came back to identify where I am coming from. And your last reply is headed in the same direction.

NONE of that changes that its a FACT, that their are specific guidelines and age requirements. I all ready said those are exceptions to the rule. Nothing that you just posted changes that their are those rules in effect. I also never said juniors couldn't get black belt, but they are junior ranks, under the age of 16, That's why you will see black belts at junior events.