Finding EBI's exploit

[Aiseop]

What if the first 2 or 3 rounds had time limits and no escape time accumulation? This would take the risk of accumulative escape time off of the offensive person and because of the time limit, increase the urgency for submission.

I like, I like. We won't find the perfect solution, but I think this feels very much "in the spirit" of EBI.

[David Rosado]

I don't think Soto was gaming the system. He almost tapped Geo with an Inverted Heel Hook at one point.

Was that in regulation or in OT? I think the issue was that he was gaming the OT rounds. And I ain't mad at him. He already go zero money for reaching OT. So might as well game the rules to get to the next round.



Maybe another rule idea is that the escape timer doesn't start until there is an actual submission attempted. That way, a guy can't just hold onto seat belt control for a minute before attempting a sub. Also, the escape time would be true escape time, not just positional control time. And if the guy escapes before you attempt the sub, then it's a zero second escape time. I think that's fair.

Back control does require a bit of stabilization before you start attacking. So does spiderweb, truck, etc. Even when you're in position, the other guy already has an escape planned with the OT rules. When the bell rings, they're already squirming to get out. It would be silly to immediately go for the sub. You need a few moments to stabilize before you actually go for the sub. This can be an intentional way to game the rules or it can be incidental. So I feel like it makes more sense to start clocking the escape time once the sub is attempted and the clock stops either at the end of the OT round, or once the guy is officially out of danger.

[Ben Eddy]

I could see a lot of MMA fighters with good sub defense and good explosive escapes employing this strategy with a lot of effectiveness.

This isn't that bad of a thing though. It's very impressive to see their explosive escapes, sub defense and also control. I enjoyed watching Soto be able to have better back control than Miyao, that was crazy to see for me at least. Geo got out really fast in the last couple rounds, he just got caught too long in the first one. That was really probably more of an urgency mistake on Geo's side rather than Soto's gameplan working as Geo controlled him better and escaped faster after that first round.

You gotta take into account that using this strategy is very risky, takes a lot of skill to be able to pull off and at the end of the event it won't get you paid. You risk your cardio, you risk losing to a sub at any point and you forfeit the prize money. I don't think it's much of a loophole. I think it's a mediocre strategy that we will probably see one or two people out of 16 try at each event.

Ultimately his strategy didn't work. He did get subbed.

The format could be played with a bit with things like having time limits for the first couple rounds. Actively using stall cards in OT and in regulation time (stall calls are the reason wrestling stays fast paced 24/7). But I think it is working just as it is now.

[gene k]

This isn't that bad of a thing though. It's very impressive to see their explosive escapes, sub defense and also control. I enjoyed watching Soto be able to have better back control than Miyao, that was crazy to see for me at least. Geo got out really fast in the last couple rounds, he just got caught too long in the first one. That was really probably more of an urgency mistake on Geo's side rather than Soto's gameplan working as Geo controlled him better and escaped faster after that first round.

You gotta take into account that using this strategy is very risky, takes a lot of skill to be able to pull off and at the end of the event it won't get you paid. You risk your cardio, you risk losing to a sub at any point and you forfeit the prize money. I don't think it's much of a loophole. I think it's a mediocre strategy that we will probably see one or two people out of 16 try at each event.

Ultimately his strategy didn't work. He did get subbed.

The format could be played with a bit with things like having time limits for the first couple rounds. Actively using stall cards in OT and in regulation time (stall calls are the reason wrestling stays fast paced 24/7). But I think it is working just as it is now.

Again I agree.

Another idea, if stalling becomes a problem in OT, is to incentivize the OT submission with some money. It would be much less than a normal round submission. This would give the contestants something to think about. If there is no submission in OT, no money. If they get a submission in OT some money. This may get some more of the contestants to go for the tap. But if it's too much money then this may encourage contestants to stall the main rounds out in order to get into OT? This should be difficult though, because of the stall cards.

[Aiseop]

I think one thing to think about is how much money overrides the value of the "recognition of having won." Obviously, something like $1 million is worth more than that recognition of being EBI champ. But is $20,000? For some, they could cash-in on the EBI champ label without the $20,000 for far more than just $20,000 would. In other words, and I think I believe this, being EBI champ is worth more than $20,000. If competitors think this, then the incentive to win - even if by "gaming" the rules - is more than the short-term gains in cash.

[Anthony Herrera]

The best thing about EBI is that Eddie is always looking for the best rules to keep the action going. If this is a problem in the future I'm sure the rules will be adjusted so that no one just hangs on in OT. And on the other hand Soto is a beast he made it to 5th round with TJ Dillashaw. He might just be an outliar in this situation.

[Arman Fathi]

I think one thing to think about is how much money overrides the value of the "recognition of having won." Obviously, something like $1 million is worth more than that recognition of being EBI champ. But is $20,000? For some, they could cash-in on the EBI champ label without the $20,000 for far more than just $20,000 would. In other words, and I think I believe this, being EBI champ is worth more than $20,000. If competitors think this, then the incentive to win - even if by "gaming" the rules - is more than the short-term gains in cash.

Put it perfectly here. Recognition doesn't hold a T to a check for a million dollars. And the recognition aspect only goes so far when the guy who is running the tournament just so happens to be the ref. D'you think that same guy is going to want to bring back a $0 award winning champ? At least you could say that Eddie Cummings wiped the board clean with subs, though at this point it's almost like the mid-to-late 90's Bulls teams where Jordan was playing and you pretty much knew the outcome beforehand. I'd imagine though that at future tournaments there'd be greater interest in seeing sub specialists. At the 4 or 5 figure level, perhaps recognition is worth sacrificing a few g's to be crowned the EBi champ. You'd probably sell enough private lessons and seminars to make it up in a reasonable amount of time. But at the 7 figure level? You'd be outta your mind to not risk it.

[Anthony Peck]

And the recognition aspect only goes so far when the guy who is running the tournament just so happens to be the ref.

How is this relevant? In regular time, you sub you win, the only call Eddie could make as far as I can tell that might affect the outcome is when the person trying to escape in OT has actually escaped.

[Craig Murray]

What seems amazing to me is that we are talking about the potential for stalling or gaming in EBI. Compared to things like ADCC and IBJJF worlds there is dramatically less stalling, if it exists at all.

I've been watching the Budo Videos ADCC full replays from 2013 and there are TONS of guys who just won't engage. They want to stall until points start, and then find a way to scrape together 2-4 points, and beyond that, stay on their feet. It's gross, it's nearly unwatchable, and it must be extremely frustrating for anyone competing against them.

We are all very lucky to have something like EBI where, if there is any play like that, it's such a small issue that people will argue about whether or not it actually exists.


I was concerned about stalling after watching my heroes Geo and Miyao lose (and watching Geo accuse Soto of stalling at the end of their match). But when I watched it for the 2nd time, I didnt really see anything bad from Soto. He attacked plenty, and his opponents had plenty of opportunities to sub him.

Did Soto play position in OT? Yeah I think so, but if I was his coach I would have told him to do just that. OT is all about position control, or did I miss something when I read the rules? Most guys play position in OT don't they? You've already lost your money, the only thing you've got is to win at that point. Of course you control position for as long as possible. The only reason anyone should attempt a sub in OT is if their opponent, in trying to escape, offers them an opportunity.

EddieC subbed Soto in under 5 minutes. Was Soto tired? Yeah he looked like it. But he still looked 2nd class against Eddie.

The biggest thing I learned from EBI4 is that Cummings is an assassin.

[Mojoplata]

And on the other hand Soto is a beast he made it to 5th round with TJ Dillashaw. He might just be an outliar in this situation.

That's what I was thinking. I don't think anyone will underestimate Soto's ground game in MMA