Renzo Gracie Sets The Record Straight: ‘Sport Jiu-Jitsu & Street Jiu-Jitsu

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Thats makes ense. If you're out to dominate then you apt to use the types of techniques that are more applicable to self defense. I think thats what he meant thanks. I didn't think of the typical student at a gracie school having that mentality in a self defense situation.

Now how about once your onslaught has been repealed and you have to keep fighting, maybe you're dazed? Then you're possibly in the situation I described above.

Yeah Rafa could against some average guy but I dont see that really makes a point?

[Joe Firth]

For me is about the fighter not the art. You just need to be intellegent. Would someone who does tae kwon do instantly go for a 720 wheel kick on the street? Or simply push kick an attacker away?

Or Muay Thai going for spinning elbows or back fists or would they just clinch?

Same with BJJ, would you go for a berimbolo OR would you practice your high percentage guard and anti striking, street applicable stuff.

The only debate here is the fighter and potentially what techniques you go to as second nature/fight or flight mode.


The debates been there when I did karate and the one punch, sport like nature that you see people practice now for competition.

So the some sport techniques are not ideal (across the board in any sport) - so don't use them - as a martial artist we should all recognise what to use in which situations.

[Aiseop]

Now how about once your onslaught has been repealed and you have to keep fighting, maybe you're dazed? Then you're possibly in the situation I described above.

Yeah Rafa could against some average guy but I dont see that really makes a point?

If your jiu-jitsu onslaught has been repelled, then you are facing A BETTER jiu-jitsuka or someone that trains MMA. We are getting so idiosyncratic now that no longer do generalizations apply. So I'll stick to me. Brown belt at an MMA-heavy jiu-jitsu school. If my onslaught in a self-defense situation is repelled, then I am FUCKED. That guy knows better jiu-jitsu or judo or takedown defense than me. The system has not lost its validity. I am just facing a better practitioner of the system. An immoral asshole at that who is using BJJ to assault/rob, but nonetheless, the jiu-jitsu is still sound.

[Jon Watkins]

That make even less sense. No one has a switch that turns off the techniques they practice often and on the ones that they neglect. You dont have to be an idiot to use the wrong technique in s.d. You fight with the techniques you have committed to muscle memory, especially once things are going rough or you're dazed.

You may not start off by pulling guard but once it a real fight its very hard to avoid the techniques that you use often. Its hard to defend yourself in a calculating manner when you are in a fight. Why do you think the level of jits seems so much lower in mma?

I dont agree that people are trying to separate sport and self defense. I think they are simply observing a separation that already exist whether or not Renzo want to admit it.

If you don't have a switch that goes off during a street fight, you are probably fucked regardless of what you train. I don't train kicking a guy in the balls everyday or fish hooking a guy while I punch him in the throat from back mount, but that doesn't mean I can't do it. I can. Training sport Jiu Jitsu does not make you an automaton in a street fight. You know the dominant positions. You know how to get there. If you are worth your sand as a sport Jiu Jitsu competitor, chances are you know more than spiral guard and the berimbolo and you know that moves like that are not blood in your intentions street fight moves in the first place.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

If your jiu-jitsu onslaught has been repelled, then you are facing A BETTER jiu-jitsuka or someone that trains MMA. We are getting so idiosyncratic now that no longer do generalizations apply. So I'll stick to me. Brown belt at an MMA-heavy jiu-jitsu school. If my onslaught in a self-defense situation is repelled, then I am FUCKED. That guy knows better jiu-jitsu or judo or takedown defense than me. The system has not lost its validity. I am just facing a better practitioner of the system. An immoral asshole at that who is using BJJ to assault/rob, but nonetheless, the jiu-jitsu is still sound.

A brown belt is not the typical skill level of a person using jits in self defense. I dont know how big you are but size could overcome skill. All that has to happen is one luck punch to take away your abilty to think well.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

For me is about the fighter not the art. You just need to be intellegent. Would someone who does tae kwon do instantly go for a 720 wheel kick on the street? Or simply push kick an attacker away?

Or Muay Thai going for spinning elbows or back fists or would they just clinch?

Same with BJJ, would you go for a berimbolo OR would you practice your high percentage guard and anti striking, street applicable stuff.

The only debate here is the fighter and potentially what techniques you go to as second nature/fight or flight mode.


The debates been there when I did karate and the one punch, sport like nature that you see people practice now for competition.

So the some sport techniques are not ideal (across the board in any sport) - so don't use them - as a martial artist we should all recognise what to use in which situations.

I trained TKd for 5 years. I used to to defend myself. I did use a relatively simple kick. It happened without thought on my part. We trained the kick I used at least 10 times more than fancy aerial kicks and they are rarely used in competition. Compared that to a bjj'er that uses and trains something like spiral all the time.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

If you don't have a switch that goes off during a street fight, you are probably fucked regardless of what you train. I don't train kicking a guy in the balls everyday or fish hooking a guy while I punch him in the throat from back mount, but that doesn't mean I can't do it. I can. Training sport Jiu Jitsu does not make you an automaton in a street fight. You know the dominant positions. You know how to get there. If you are worth your sand as a sport Jiu Jitsu competitor, chances are you know more than spiral guard and the berimbolo and you know that moves like that are not blood in your intentions street fight moves in the first place.

I'd have to guess that you have never defended yourself in a street fight or at least have never come back after losing ground. You cant think worth a shit when it going down.
You use the techniques that are in your muscle memory. if you observe the situation developing and know you may have to defend yourself and things go well then yes you can defend yourself in a cognitive manner but many times it is not a favorable situation like that.
Jits is better than no jits but for self defense, imo, training only or mostly techniques that are favorable in self defense is better than regularly training those that are not.

[Aiseop]

I have no idea what this thread is about anymore. Good luck, all.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Did the topic change? I think its about whether or not there is a difference between jits for self defense and jits for sport. Renzo says no diff just let aggression guide you and you will use the techniques that are street applicable even when you are in a real fight and maybe not doing well or dazed.

I doubt that from my personal experience defending myself and others. Sure sometimes I was able to plot and felt confident and was able to fight in a cognitive manner. Other times its like being in the turbulent ocean at night, but muscle memory saved me. You dont always feel confident and aggressive when defending yourself, even if it starts out that way.

[Jon Watkins]

I'd have to guess that you have never defended yourself in a street fight or at least have never come back after losing ground. You cant think worth a shit when it going down.
You use the techniques that are in your muscle memory. if you observe the situation developing and know you may have to defend yourself and things go well then yes you can defend yourself in a cognitive manner but many times it is not a favorable situation like that.
Jits is better than no jits but for self defense, imo, training only or mostly techniques that are favorable in self defense is better than regularly training those that are not.

I have defended myself and I have come back from some hard hits. I can concede that my mental faculties weren't at 100% but never once did my body tell me, gee it seems like a good idea to try lapel guard on dude's jacket or maybe I should try 50/50 here. Granted scrapping has been a part of my life since tangling with bullies at 4 or 5, but I don't think most men with higher functioning are going to be trying get hit in the face when their lives are possibly in jeopardy. Also, I don't see Ryron Gracie winning a street fight against Andre Galvao since you're making the argument that self defense Jiu Jitsu is supposedly better to train than sport Jiu Jitsu. To me it seems like the self defense Jiu Jitsu guys are basically selling me a vacuum cleaner because they can't hang with the best in the world. That is all. It is obvious that your mind is made up on this argument though and it also seems like you have me sized up too so I'll go back to discussing techniques on other threads and let this one go.