sub only vs. points

[Jeremy Gates]

While I do secure positions I'm still always hunting and trying to set up submissions. If I lose because some one grinded on me for an entire round and didn't attempt subs or was t good at them , I don't feel as bad as a guy making me tap. I'm not a fan of just grinding out and winning by points. In a street fight yeah I will try to mount and throw bombs rather than being in guard but as far as competing in grappling you should be securing a position then trying to finish

[Marcos Avellan]

Hey guys, thanks for posting up the email and for sharing your views on it. The only thing missing was the email title, which is what the rant was about, and the email title was, "I don't grapple for points, I train for self defense..."

I'm not saying that tournaments should be points or sub only - I'm saying that if you are training for self defense, then there should be an understanding that getting your guard passed or mounted is bad (and that is what points do).

However, if you are a grappling fan (like you don't care about self defense application, you are simply a sport grappler) and you think points make matches boring - THAT IS SUPER COOL! However, one should not confuse a "submission only" strategy that has a total disregard for positioning as a grappling style that promotes self defense.

For instance, Greg W asks me, "Yeh, but how impressed are you with the guy that has mount 20 times in twenty minutes and still can't finish the match with a sub???"

See, I train BJJ strictly for violence, whether it be self defense or MMA competition, so as much as I appreciate submissions (almost 40% of my grappling victories were by submission) I do understand that submissions are not a requirement for ending a fight. If you can mount an opponent 20 times in 20 minutes, who needs to submit him? Punch him out.

For instance, if you were to grapple an opponent that you would later have to fight in MMA or in the street, and in your grappling session, you got taken down, guard passed, and mounted at will for twenty minutes... and then with 30 seconds left, you tap him with a guillotine off of one of his shots... how confident would you be about your MMA fight with him later? Now let's say that when you grapple him, instead you were able to take HIM down, pass his guard at will, and you spent the entire twenty minutes mounting him and taking his back... but you couldn't submit him... how confident are you about you upcoming MMA or street fight with him? THAT is the difference.

So it really depends on what your goals are.

Also, I am NOT knocking Ryron in any shape or form. I haven't seen the match and I think the match was a tie because that is what the rules said. Nobody got tapped - it is a tie. Speculation of who "won" the match is stupid because it is a clear tie. If I was in a match like that, maybe a "rope-a-dope" strategy would be useful to tire out your opponent before going for the sub, since there are no points being scored. I'm not knocking that and I did not talk against the strategy in my email.

What I did bash, and will continue to bash, is anyone that says the match was fought with a "self defense" style and that his performance at the event versus Galvao proved that his style of grappling is more effective for self defense.

Many are arguing that point and THAT is what I'm bashing. I'm very against the "self defense spin" that some grapplers do when they get scored 20 to 0 but didn't get submitted.

Did Ryron say anything about self defense and how this draw validated his style of grappling as being superior to Galvao's for self defense? Probably not (at least I hope not). My rant was for the "self defense grapplers" that suck at position arguing that they don't care because "points don't matter for self defense". It wasn't targeted at the Gracies.

I've competed in three no time limit ammy mma matches where the rules dictated that they didn't end until somebody got KO'ed or submitted and I won all three matches by submission, a couple of them went past 25 minutes, so I can appreciate the art of this sort of competition. I'm not bashing the rules of the competition, the concept of the competition, or the competitor's strategies for winning - I'm bashing the whole "self defense" thing about points not mattering and a submission only match being proof of that.

[Marcos Avellan]

i dont necessarily agree with him on the bad self defence part. so from bottom mount what should you do in a self defence situation, just stick your arms out in all directions and flail around?

Personally, I believe you should commit to one escape with everything you got, whether it be to bridge him over, push at his hips with both hands and replace butterfly guard, push his knee with both hands to replace guard, underhooking under the leg to come out the back, etc., all while knowing you are most likely going to eat a few punches in the process. I don't believe in locking my hands together and looking up at him. I also don't believe in turtling up either. Turtling up with your forearms to block punches to your face doesn't require any technique and will always be there for you when you are gassed and get mounted in a fight - so in training you should always focus on escaping bad positions with technique, and with urgency. In a real fight, you can't really chill from bottom mount the same way you can chill from bottom guard. Unless the mounted opponent is gassed and is chilling as well... but I don't want to depend on that.

[Kevin Gibbs]

I love sub only tournaments I also love inverted guards and other places where someone could stomp on your face. I pull guard all the time. When I'm on the street in a violent situation I'm not going to buttscoot.

I think Marcos has it more right than not in regards to self defence.

I'll still take sub only over points to compete in because I have more fun.

[sean applegate]

Thanks for the elaboration marcos. Just for the record, i am a huge fan of you and your brothers and am on the email list because of the great information you guys share.

This post was meant to start a conversation, not to bash you or your ideas.

I agree that sitting in the bottom of mount isnt exactly a display of good self defense. Also, imo, most tournament style grappling strategies arent really "self defence" minded anyways. You would never jump guard in the streets. So for someone to have said that in the first place is a little silly.

[Dylan Ehrnreiter]

Keep sub only, kill the time limits. Or, after (X) time has passed, allow strikes.

[derrick ikwueme]

points = boaring sub only = excitment metamoris is the most exciting jiujitsu event ever. Eddie was pumped during his interview with inside bjj after the event

[AJ Camacho]

I don't think that defending a submission for 15 minutes was being marketed as a self defense strategy. I just think that Ryron's self defense focused training allowed him to have a skill set which could defend dominate positions for 15 minutes in an effort to gas out Galvao. Glover tried the exact same strategy but eventually he got caught.

I think everybody would prefer a more aggressive approach to jiujitsu but in a self defense scenario you cannot guarantee that you will always be the more aggressive one. Using his submission defense skills Ryron was able to negate any attack or aggression by Galvao while whittling away at his energy. People were cheering Ryron, not because he bested Galvao (because he clearly didn't) but because "on paper" he should have been destroyed in the first 5 minutes by Galvao. I guarantee you that this week, there are white belts who watched that card who are going to be happy as hell when they can thwart off the gym gorilla for 5 minutes. It was inspiring and it reminded us that there are skills outside of the sports paradigm (passive patient defense) which are just as important as the skills found within it.

Marcos, love the videos and the awesome work you do.

[Spínola]

I don't think that defending a submission for 15 minutes was being marketed as a self defense strategy. I just think that Ryron's self defense focused training allowed him to have a skill set which could defend dominate positions for 15 minutes in an effort to gas out Galvao. Glover tried the exact same strategy but eventually he got caught.

I think everybody would prefer a more aggressive approach to jiujitsu but in a self defense scenario you cannot guarantee that you will always be the more aggressive one. Using his submission defense skills Ryron was able to negate any attack or aggression by Galvao while whittling away at his energy. People were cheering Ryron, not because he bested Galvao (because he clearly didn't) but because "on paper" he should have been destroyed in the first 5 minutes by Galvao. I guarantee you that this week, there are white belts who watched that card who are going to be happy as hell when they can thwart off the gym gorilla for 5 minutes. It was inspiring and it reminded us that there are skills outside of the sports paradigm (passive patient defense) which are just as important as the skills found within it.

Marcos, love the videos and the awesome work you do.

Well said!

[bobby rivers]

All he is saying is that his philosophy is you should always grapple as if your opponent can strike. Even if he cant. Eddie has a very similar one. I share it as well. Mma is not a game, nor is true self defense. It is a fight. Strikes are aloud and a serious threat of violence. His ability to strike me is ALWAYS on my mind especially from dominant positions, so i have great urgency to protect my self and escape.

Smiling at an opponent who has you mounted is a game.

Master Avellan, I would also like to express my gratitude for your time and presence. Question. Do you think the current point system is acceptable? Any improvements or omissions you would make?