Do TPJJ fighters make the same mistakes as traditionalist Gracie JJ?

[Dennis Martinez]

do you train at the same place as Josh Waitzkin?

Yeah Josh is a great guy and good friend / training partner....

[Eddie Bravo]

If you watch the MTS episodes you will see that it is a giant misconception that I don't teach basics.

How much of an idiot would I be if I preached not to focus on basics? I would have to be a complete moron to believe that

[Brandon Mccaghren]

if you watch the mts episodes you will see that it is a giant misconception that i don't teach basics.

How much of an idiot would i be if i preached not to focus on basics? I would have to be a complete moron to believe that

this

[Harry Evans]

Eddie, I don't mean to imply that you don't teach the basics, and I sure as hell don't mean to insinuate that you are closed minded or, as you say, an idiot. You have opened up the way I see BJJ, and I am a serious believer in both TPJJ and yourself. I'm the guy that runs around a Gracie Humaita affiliate getting laughed at while I talk about Rubber Guard.

It just seems that a lot of TPJJ guys learn the other stuff as "This is what other people might do to you" rather than fully incorporating it into their games. I have seen you say in tons of videos how important fundamentals and basics are, and how important your background was to developing TPJJ as we know it. I just wonder how consistently those points are taken to heart. Why is it that TPJJ fighters pretty much only follow TPJJ routes? Is it really just the best possible option always, or would it be better as just another part of your arsenal? I know that I personally get some of my best openings for TP subs through threatening regular attacks. When I go straight to RG, people can sometimes defend, but when I mix it up, they seem to have no idea what to do. Same with lockdown.

Again, this is no criticism of the value of TPJJ or its fighters, and I'm not trying to troll for arguments. I just want to know what to focus on in my training, and the reasons for the decisions of some of my favorite fighters on earth.

[Jason Eisner]

We all have seen that it seems the big obstacle in the growth of TPJJ is resistance from traditionalist BJJ experts who seem closed-minded to these new ideas. We have all heard "That's just a stalling technique", "you will definitely destroy your knees", and "name a TPJJ fighter who has won Mundials or ADCC" from haters of even the highest ranks, and it drives me insane. However, I wonder if we sometimes take it in the opposite direction.

First of all, this is not an attack on TPJJ, I'm a huge believer in the system. But look at the style of most TPJJ guys, such as those in all of the great videos out there. They seem to follow a few distinct paths almost every time. Now, I understand the value of having go-to moves and clear direction in your attacks, but I believe Eddie is the first to say that these techniques are best added to your grappling arsenal, and are strongest when not stand-alone. Eddie is so much more successful at them then anyone else because of his unique way of seeing things, but also because he is a JJM black belt with amazing, non-TPJJ technique and experience. He knows things like how to be heavy on top, and how to move around, from before TPJJ existed. I think many of the newer fighters miss out on the other options they could have because of their dedication to TPJJ (which is primarily a good thing, for the record).

This is not to say TPJJ is closed-minded. Call out a new idea, or something explained by a good instructor, and everyone discusses its merits on here with no bias. But when you spend all day on lockdown, you work less deep-half. When you play rubber, you don't practice spider-guard or de la riva guard as much. There are very few people like Vinny Magalhaes, or George Sotiropoulos, who have strong traditional backgrounds, but regularly attack with TPJJ, yet I feel that these will be the types who will bring its recognition to the next level. We all talk about "what if BJ Penn, or Demian Maia trained a ton of TPJJ" because people with those abilities could do things with the system that most of us could not even imagine. Well, I encourage the younger fighters to stay true to TPJJ, but also to expose yourself to traditional BJJ, and other grappling arts like wrestling and judo. I think that's how to become the next Eddie.

Forgive me for the length of this post. I want to know what you guys think about this admittedly high, but still thought-out rant. Am I just not seeing the extent to which people use other stuff? Or is it possible that, in a strong counter-reaction to many BJJ legends shunning this system, some of us return the favor and spend our training learning just about only TPJJ moves?

Eddie has been quoted as saying that 10th Planet JJ is "anything that works at a high level for no-gi." That includes traditional BJJ techniques that do not rely on the gi for implementation.

That being said, Eddie also encourages people to go train at other high level schools and learn what is working for them.

[Jason Eisner]

Eddie, I don't mean to imply that you don't teach the basics, and I sure as hell don't mean to insinuate that you are closed minded or, as you say, an idiot. You have opened up the way I see BJJ, and I am a serious believer in both TPJJ and yourself. I'm the guy that runs around a Gracie Humaita affiliate getting laughed at while I talk about Rubber Guard.

It just seems that a lot of TPJJ guys learn the other stuff as "This is what other people might do to you" rather than fully incorporating it into their games. I have seen you say in tons of videos how important fundamentals and basics are, and how important your background was to developing TPJJ as we know it. I just wonder how consistently those points are taken to heart. Why is it that TPJJ fighters pretty much only follow TPJJ routes? Is it really just the best possible option always, or would it be better as just another part of your arsenal? I know that I personally get some of my best openings for TP subs through threatening regular attacks. When I go straight to RG, people can sometimes defend, but when I mix it up, they seem to have no idea what to do. Same with lockdown.

Again, this is no criticism of the value of TPJJ or its fighters, and I'm not trying to troll for arguments. I just want to know what to focus on in my training, and the reasons for the decisions of some of my favorite fighters on earth.

Can you use your real name? People might take your post more seriously.

You keep mentioning these so called "TPJJ routes." I have no idea what your actual experience with 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu is, but this very limiting sounding "TPJJ routes" thing doesn't exist.

All of us at 10th Planet JJ Headquarters are taught basic BJJ.

There are paths when referring to certain set ups from Rubber Guard, but 10th Planet JJ is WAY more than just Rubber Guard.

[Harry Evans]

Can you use your real name? People might take your post more seriously.

You keep mentioning these so called "TPJJ routes." I have no idea what your actual experience with 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu is, but this very limiting sounding "TPJJ routes" thing doesn't exist.

All of us at 10th Planet JJ Headquarters are taught basic BJJ.

There are paths when referring to certain set ups from Rubber Guard, but 10th Planet JJ is WAY more than just Rubber Guard.

My real name is Harry Evans. When I describe "TPJJ routes", I mean the paths that I see most TPJJ fighters take in competition. For example, lockdown, double unders, old school, if that doesn't work electric chair... or pull guard, mission control, ny, chill dog, maybe crackhead, kung-fu move, etc. I think my question has been answered though: it seems like the guys who train directly at TPJJ schools spend much more time on basic BJJ fundamentals than I thought. I was just pointing out how that is not obvious just by watching competition footage. It's crazy how quickly you can watch a match and say "that guy is clearly tenth planet" after about 15 seconds, while it's not as easy to say "that guy is clearly gracie barra" or some other team. Honestly though, as far as TPJJ being way more than RG, I'm usually the person that makes that point to others, I get it. I'm not at all trying to take away from the system or its participants. Sorry if it seemed that way. Matter of fact, I just spent my birthday yesterday doing reps on my moves from TSC

[Jason Eisner]

Harry,

Thanks for using your real name. There are so many trolls on these kinds of forums these days, it is hard to know who is asking a questions in earnest. If you change your account name, it would definitely open people up to giving you a different sort of response to your questions.

I now understand your question, but totally disagree with your assumption.

It's crazy how quickly you can watch a match and say "that guy is clearly tenth planet" after about 15 seconds, while it's not as easy to say "that guy is clearly gracie barra" or some other team.

First of all, Eddie has produced a number of highly successful books and DVD's illustrating some of 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu's most progressive techniques. These books and DVD's are sold worldwide and anyone can purchase them and try out techniques in competition. So when you see someone in competition working Rubber Guard, or say sweeps from the Lockdown, you may want to look into who these guys are, what their affiliation is and how long they have been training BJJ. They may be new to Jiu Jitsu, and they may not in fact be 10th Planet affiliated.

Another reason you may see people working these positions, or set ups more often in competition is because of the fact that most other schools don't rep those techniques, therefore making it an obvious go to.

I'll give you an example. If your school is really good at guillotines, and has a variety of set ups from there like say...Renzo Gracie's school in New York City, you might use that as a go to in competition matches because other schools may be lacking of reps in that area. Renzo's school excellent at guillotines and well known for that.

Or say if your from De La Riva's academy, you might use De La Riva guard as your go to.

Atos is proficient at everything really, but they work a lot of spiral guard and 50/50.

Ryan Hall's school is named 50/50 BJJ. That might give you some insight.

In other words, just because we learn Rubber Guard and Lockdown, that doesn't mean that is all we learn. Eddie is just as awesome teaching us Kimura's as he is teaching us Double Bagger.

There are also quite a few guys who compete at a very high level who are very proficient in Rubber Guard paths and sweeps from the Lockdown. These guys also happen to be awesome at fundamental BJJ. I can name a bunch, but Sean Bollinger and Denny Prokopos quickly come to mind.

[Dennis Martinez]

awesome breakdown jason and amazing insight.....

[Harry Evans]

Jason, thank you, that is exactly the response I was looking for. And you are right. Maybe I really just get excited like Joe Rogan whenever I see someone use RG, but I never really considered it could just be another person who uses online videos. And Ryan Hall's 50/50BJJ or De La Riva are pretty solid examples of other unique, recognizable schools. I appreciate the insight, and the way you broke it down.

On a side note: how can I change my user name?