Discussing Leg Entanglment

[Fabian Parker]

Hey all,

I've just been thinking about the various leg entanglement positions and their relative strengths and weaknesses. For me personally I have a lot of success from DOA.

Recently I have been watching Ryan Hall's 50/50 series I've noticed that many of his entries to the 50/50 put you in DOA. However, Ryan prefers to switch the leg over to the inside to get the 50/50 heelhook. Now I'm guessing he does this because his familiarity with the 50/50 is a lot better than other entanglements. But I'm also wondering which leg entanglements you guys feel most comfortable/successful finishing leglocks from.

Like I said for me I find the DOA to be most successful. The most controlling to be the Knot, though difficult to enter. And the 411 is good too but only if I have control of the free leg in a leg lace style grip. Normal Ashi is the easiest to get into.

What are your thoughts?

[Mike Nall]

I can help with this. Some context is needed. First of all, Ryan's 5050 instructional came out in 2009 and he wasn't even a black belt at the time. His leg lock knowledge and what he prefers has changed since then, and even his heel hook finishing mechanics on the inside heel hook aren't the same as they were then (rolling to finish then instead of now, where there's more focus of the Cummings/Tonon style bridging into the side of the knee). You can even see him talking about this to one of the coaches on the most recent season of TUF.

Also it's important to know how the 50/50 heel hook became a big part of his game. Before black belt, he said that maybe scored 100 points total in several hundred matches, and most of it wasn't on purpose. He started off in bjj with just closed guard triangles, and then inverted guard to shooting triangles, and then at purple/brown belt when people knew his game they would start to stand up when he would shoot his triangles and he would latch the 50/50 on their legs instead. He would arm drag to RNCs or lock darces to defend takedowns or if he ended up on top but most of his game was guard entries to triangles or 50/50 heel hooks.

Also, knowledge on the 50/50 was very limited at the time. On his instructional he mentions that it's a skill based position, and his skill and knowledge there was much higher than everyone else's. Now the 50/50 has been around long enough for more people to have a better idea of what to do there. These days he uses the DOA/outside ashi for the outside heel hook quite a lot, and the honeyhole/4-11 for the inside heel hook as well.

All that said it's still a great instructional with a lot of great details. And the best no-gi 50/50 resource out there.

Personally I prefer the 4-11, then the DOA, then the 50/50, in that order. I like the regular ashi a lot but usually with me I have trouble keeping my inside foot from being attacked (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keeTKizdZzU#t=35s) and so I usually just shoot the inside leg to the outside for the DOA/outside ashi.

[Fabian Parker]

Mike, thankyou for clearing up the history on the 50/50 as well as why Ryan was using it. In light of your comments his preference for the position, as well as his adoption for more stable leg entanglements such as Outside Ashi and Inside Sankaku(411) make complete sense. It's funny to think that Ryan may have been one of the first sports bjj submission hunters not by choice, but by that being the only way he could compete and win with more experienced grapplers.

While there are things that could be updated, I also agree that there is a lot to learn still from his 50/50 instructional. What are your thoughts on the Sambo style knot?

I would also like to know what other grapplers on this forum who love the leg lock game think of the different leg entanglement positions?

[Chris Herzog]

There are several threads with multiple pages discussing this topic with some really solid feedback. Do a forum search and you should find it.

[Mike Nall]

Mike, thankyou for clearing up the history on the 50/50 as well as why Ryan was using it. In light of your comments his preference for the position, as well as his adoption for more stable leg entanglements such as Outside Ashi and Inside Sankaku(411) make complete sense. It's funny to think that Ryan may have been one of the first sports bjj submission hunters not by choice, but by that being the only way he could compete and win with more experienced grapplers.

While there are things that could be updated, I also agree that there is a lot to learn still from his 50/50 instructional. What are your thoughts on the Sambo style knot?

I would also like to know what other grapplers on this forum who love the leg lock game think of the different leg entanglement positions?

Happy to help! I actually wouldn't say that Ryan was one of the first sport bjj submission hunters. There were a lot of awesome submission focused guys like Marcelo Garcia, Jacare, Roger Gracie, Jean Jacques Machado (Eddie's teacher), and others. Even other sub focused Americans that had a some years on Ryan Hall such as Dean Lister, Jeff Glover, and Bill Cooper. But Ryan was probably the first grappler that got a significant amount of attention online in the lower belts. There were lots of his matches online as early as blue belt, and the big Youtube Jiu-Jitsu boom hadn't even started yet. He was under Lloyd Irvin at the time who marketed Ryan heavily.

I like the sambo leg knot but I don't use it very much. There's no particular reason. I just have a lot of things that are in my game from positions where the leg knot might be achieved, and to me it just wouldn't be worth the clutter to make it a large part of my game that I seek out. I still use it sometimes.

[Fabian Parker]

Thanks again for that info Mike it's great to have some history on submission hunters in BJJ

Would any of you be able to point me to the threads/posts that concern the leg entanglement or even which terms to search for? I have been searching through the Ultimate Leg Lock thread post and a few others but the information I've found so far doesn't appear to be too recent (post Cummings EBI5 success) nor specifically looking at this topic. That's kinda why I decided to create a new thread.

If my search skills suck or this post is unwarranted for some other reason I'm sorry and it would be great if someone could point me in the right direction. Many thanks

[Gareth Hynes]

http://wrestlejitsu.io/2015/04/15/dr...ries/#more-185