Oswaldo Fadda: The OG Gracie Rival

[Ericp]

I thought everyone knew that there were 2 lines of Jiu Jitsu. The Luiz Franca line and the Gracie line

[Ericp]

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...ieira-bjj-wiki

crazier to think that this guy doesn't even practice Gracie Jiu Jitsu

[Jack Hanley]

The Gracie’s sons trained with Maeda for somewhere between 2 to 4 years. Maeda then moved to another part of Brazil.

In 1925, Carlos Gracie opened his own Jiu-Jitsu school. Similar to Jigoro Kano, Gracie had 4 years training (and possibly less) ....Carlos was maybe a purple belt at best( today's standarts) when he first opened his school. Nobody belted him or gave him rank.

That is the story we have been told.

But, as people look more closely at history it has turned out there is a real question as to whether Carlos ever trained with Maeda at all. It is looking like it is possible that he only trained with a student of Maeda's named Donato Pires dos Reis. It is also looking like Carlos didn't open the Academia Gracie in 1925. He only took over Pires Dos Reis's school years later after being an assistant instructor there. Here are some other startling ideas that look like they may be true:

a) it looks like luta livre is truly a progeny of catch wrestling and probably existed in Brazil prior to Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,

b) Maeda was only one of many Kodokan Judo guys in Brazil during this period,

c) the other Kodokan guys were well known and taking a lot of fights in Brazil,

d) George Gracie was fighting way more than Helio,

d) George Gracie trained with a luta livre guy (Dudu) for a while,

e) George Gracie trained with the other Kodokan guys who weren't Maeda,

f) it sounds like Helio actually got his ass kicked in more of his fights than just Kimura,and

g) at one point George separated from Carlos and Helio and wanted to take a fight against Helio until Carlos wouldn't allow Helio to participate.

You can find in-depth discussions of all this in the following threads:

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma....2319187&page=1
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...ty-us-2030347/
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...gi-gjj-545131/

and also information here on George Gracie:
http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...-facts-and-bio

From reading all of that and other sources, here is how it looks like it really went down to me:

The Setting:
Brazil in the first half of the last century.

The characters:
Japanese Judo/Jiu-Jitsu guys,
European & American Catch Wrestlers,
Brazilian Catch Wrestlers (i.e. luta livre guys),
the Gracies,
the Fadda/Franca guys, and
others.

What happened:
Carnivals, Circuses, and other variety type live performance shows were holding combat sports type matches as part of their programs. These types of matches became very popular in Brazil. European and American Catch Wrestlers showed up in Brazil to tour around and do these matches. Japanese Judo/Jiu-Jitsu guys showed up in Brazil to do these matches. There were many matches both with and without the jacket. Some of these grapplers stayed in Brazil, some left. Both groups taught people their disciplines while in Brazil. Judo/Jiu-Jitsu information was also disseminated in Brazil by translations of the Hancock book published in 1905. There was much competing against each other, and a decent degree of training and teaching with each other. The progeny of the Judo guys absorbed much catch. The progeny of the catch guys absorbed much judo. The guys who trained with the jacket are now called BJJ guys. The guys who trained without the jacket are now called luta livre guys.

Anti-Litigation Disclaimer: I'm not claiming the information above as fact. I'm just saying there is information out there that seems to be indicating those things and everyone can review that information in order to decide for themselves. So don't sue me, Torrance.

Just for a little visual context, here is a picture of Maeda (looks like CACC doesn't it?):


Here are some pics of luta livre founder Euclydes Hatem (again looks like CACC, right?):




To me, the BJJ/Gracie origin story looks a lot more complicated now than the story we were told in the '90s.

[Ericp]

The bigger lie comes from Helio being such a frail and weak boy like he was dying or something and couldn't train. He was only a thin boy and they make it seem like he learned by watching and taking notes from his deathbed. Suddenly one day he rose from the dead because of BJj and started choking people lol

[Ross Davidson]

That's some interesting stuff, Jack!

[sean applegate]

The bigger lie comes from Helio being such a frail and weak boy like he was dying or something and couldn't train. He was only a thin boy and they make it seem like he learned by watching and taking notes from his deathbed. Suddenly one day he rose from the dead because of BJj and started choking people lol

lololol true. he was actually bigger than carlos.

[Chauncey Nuusolia]

dope Thread!!

[Jack LaBarge]

That is the story we have been told.

But, as people look more closely at history it has turned out there is a real question as to whether Carlos ever trained with Maeda at all. It is looking like it is possible that he only trained with a student of Maeda's named Donato Pires dos Reis. It is also looking like Carlos didn't open the Academia Gracie in 1925. He only took over Pires Dos Reis's school years later after being an assistant instructor there. Here are some other startling ideas that look like they may be true:

a) it looks like luta livre is truly a progeny of catch wrestling and probably existed in Brazil prior to Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,

b) Maeda was only one of many Kodokan Judo guys in Brazil during this period,

c) the other Kodokan guys were well known and taking a lot of fights in Brazil,

d) George Gracie was fighting way more than Helio,

d) George Gracie trained with a luta livre guy (Dudu) for a while,

e) George Gracie trained with the other Kodokan guys who weren't Maeda,

f) it sounds like Helio actually got his ass kicked in more of his fights than just Kimura,and

g) at one point George separated from Carlos and Helio and wanted to take a fight against Helio until Carlos wouldn't allow Helio to participate.

You can find in-depth discussions of all this in the following threads:

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma....2319187&page=1
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...ty-us-2030347/
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...gi-gjj-545131/

and also information here on George Gracie:
http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighter...-facts-and-bio

From reading all of that and other sources, here is how it looks like it really went down to me:

The Setting:
Brazil in the first half of the last century.

The characters:
Japanese Judo/Jiu-Jitsu guys,
European & American Catch Wrestlers,
Brazilian Catch Wrestlers (i.e. luta livre guys),
the Gracies,
the Fadda/Franca guys, and
others.

What happened:
Carnivals, Circuses, and other variety type live performance shows were holding combat sports type matches as part of their programs. These types of matches became very popular in Brazil. European and American Catch Wrestlers showed up in Brazil to tour around and do these matches. Japanese Judo/Jiu-Jitsu guys showed up in Brazil to do these matches. There were many matches both with and without the jacket. Some of these grapplers stayed in Brazil, some left. Both groups taught people their disciplines while in Brazil. Judo/Jiu-Jitsu information was also disseminated in Brazil by translations of the Hancock book published in 1905. There was much competing against each other, and a decent degree of training and teaching with each other. The progeny of the Judo guys absorbed much catch. The progeny of the catch guys absorbed much judo. The guys who trained with the jacket are now called BJJ guys. The guys who trained without the jacket are now called luta livre guys.

Anti-Litigation Disclaimer: I'm not claiming the information above as fact. I'm just saying there is information out there that seems to be indicating those things and everyone can review that information in order to decide for themselves. So don't sue me, Torrance.

Just for a little visual context, here is a picture of Maeda (looks like CACC doesn't it?):


Here are some pics of luta livre founder Euclydes Hatem (again looks like CACC, right?):




To me, the BJJ/Gracie origin story looks a lot more complicated now than the story we were told in the '90s.

History is written by the winners - Napoleon

[Jack LaBarge]

The bigger lie comes from Helio being such a frail and weak boy like he was dying or something and couldn't train. He was only a thin boy and they make it seem like he learned by watching and taking notes from his deathbed. Suddenly one day he rose from the dead because of BJj and started choking people lol

The Gracie spin zone. What b.s. Helio would go up some stairs and almost pass out. So, so weak! Then the next moment he's in a hour long challenge match. lmao. Helio is the Peter Parker of Heros

[Matt Young]

John Goodman.jpg

John Goodman invented Jiu Jitsu?