Rat guard and London?

[Cujoe]

So I was wondering if anyone thought of incorporating the rat guard into the system and bringing back the London, ever since they've seen some of the counters to the windmill sweep?

[David Rosado]

What cartwheel counters besides the single leg?

I don't expect it to become part of the system. Not that guys can't use it if they want. But I don't think it's going to be reintroduced unless someone really starts killing with it in comp.

[Cujoe]

There are a couple more, the easiest one being to cross your legs while you have the London, but there's another one I like. Here's a video of it, skip to about 3:10-3:15.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovljbfZnoX4

[Cujoe]

No body has thought about this?

[Sean James]

No body has thought about this?

This has been brought up over and over. Most likely N.W.s are tired of having the same convo over agian, and this probly my last time. Not likely it will ever come back.

How effective can you be at #1stopping his cartwheel, #2 finishing belly down counter without him getting to his knees once he hits the ground. IMO The percentages lean more towards you countering but with you ending up wrestling to stay on stop. How do you stop him from getting to his knees after you belly down to counter the cartwheel?

[Brent Smith]

There's a reason it was taken out. Chill dog is far superior. Not saying don't use it but as soon as some starts cartwheel passing it you might as well throw it away again.

I think rat guard is decent. I haven't put any time into it though.

[Sean Gamble]

I love both of these guards. But both of them have problems especially in nogi. Rat guard is pretty difficult to control if the opponent has their arms in, due to the nature of the position it can be difficult to keep their posture down and they protect themselves from the hip bump, unless you quickly go for the wrestlers switch. I have stopped really going for Williams guard/London in Nogi, it's too hard to control especially when the opponent knows the cartwheel pass. There are counters of course, but the main problem with the nogi counters imo is that they rely on the opponent's timing and not your own. I have to concede (begrudgingly ) that Chill dog is far better for nogi than London/Williams Guard.

Also if your interested, I realize i'm a nobody but I have explored and studied these positions quite a bit, to the point where I would be very suprised if I saw something new from either position...

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...-post-2650585/

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12...-post-2845273/

[kevinculp]

It's like any guard, rubber included. You have to put the time in to get good at it and be able to predict the counter for your transitions to be effective. If the cartwheel pass is hurting your Williams Guard/London then get good at single legs and then they will be helping you get to a strong top position. Shaun Williams shows a nice log roll sweep to counter that pass as well.

[kevinculp]

Another thing I like about the Williams Guard system is you don't need flexibility and it deals with your opponent stacking you in a more effective manner than rubber guard IMO.

[Tony Toffolo]

that set-up on cooper by swinney was hardcore